This week on SalesTV.live as part of our SalesTV Spotlight on Mental Health In Sales we welcome Paul Burgess. As the pressure in sales roles continues to mount, ensuring mental well-being in high-stress environments has never been more crucial. Paul brings a wealth of experience in managing social media for a mental health charity, in addition to initiating crucial mental health conversations within the workplace.

We’ll chat about -

* Personal stories from Paul, showcasing the transformative power of proactive mental health initiatives.

* The impact of mental health awareness on productivity and employee retention.

* Practical steps companies can take right away to implement mental health support systems.

Drawing from his unique transition from the corporate world to spearheading social media for a mental health focus, Paul Burgess offers unparalleled insights into integrating mental wellness into everyday professional life. His approach not only enriches workplace culture but also empowers individuals to achieve their best both personally and professionally. Discover how Paul’s real-world experiences and innovative strategies can reshape the way your team addresses mental health.

Facts, the latest thinking, chat, and banter about the world of sales.

This week's Guest was -

• Paul Burgess, Mental health conversation starter at Koru Associates Limited

This week's Host was -

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of DLA Ignite

This week's Panelist was -

• Andy Hough, Founder & Director of The Institute of Sales Professionals

Transcript of SalesTV.live Early Edition 2024-05-14

Adam Gray [00:00:02]:

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to another exciting episode of Sales TV. And, this week, we're joined by my friend, our friend, Paul Burgess. He's going to talk about Mental First Aiding, mental health, particularly given that it's Mental Health Awareness Week. So first of all, Paul, please introduce yourself to to to the audience.

Paul Burgess [00:00:30]:

Hi, everyone. Thank you, Adam. Thanks for inviting me on. So, yeah. I'm Paul Burgess. I, where do I start? So my interest in mental health, I mean, I I I do social media for a for a small mental health charity that's based in Berkshire called Sport In Mind. I've got the, wearing the brand. Andy my in my own personal interest in mental health, I suppose, goes back, 30 years or so when I I had my own mental health problems, and was diagnosed with depression.

Paul Burgess [00:01:03]:

And that was a time when people just didn't talk about it, especially us blokes. We just didn't talk about it. Even 30 years ago, it wasn't talked about as much as it is now. Mental health problems. But fast forward on to 6 or 7 years ago, and and the the event that changed my outlook and changed the way I thought and made me want to do what I'm doing now, was losing my best friend to suicide. And that that gave me a bit of a kick up the backside. And I I started doing some mental health awareness raising in the corporate world that I was, inhabiting then, and became a mental health first aider, through work. They they they were quite forward thinking at the time.

Paul Burgess [00:01:48]:

They had some mental health first aid. I trained as one of those. But it got made redundant at the end of 2020. I then started doing some freelance work helping, organizations understand how they might spot the signs that someone might be struggling with their mental well-being, especially in that environment. It seems so long ago sometimes, but it seems so Durant. Other Tim, the pandemic, when we all started working from home, and no one knew what was going on. And it was a little bit more difficult to spot if people were having problems if you weren't in the same room as them. And another quick fast forward, Andy I started I started a social media job for a museum a couple years ago.

Paul Burgess [00:02:26]:

And through that, I ended up picking up the the job that I've got with SportiveMind now, so so looking after their social media feeds. This week is a particularly busy week for us, especially as the theme for mental health awareness this week is movement, about finding finding moments to to move because it's been proven that physical activity is good for your physical well-being, but it's also very good for your mental well-being as well.

Adam Gray [00:02:52]:

Alright.

Paul Burgess [00:02:52]:

As a as a, as the leading UK sports related mental health charity, we are very busy this week.

Adam Gray [00:03:01]:

I can imagine. So so you you Hughes the expression, mental first aider. Yep. And I kind of I kind of get what that is. You know, these are 2 concepts that I can put together and and Yes. So what what does that actually entail?

Paul Burgess [00:03:19]:

So men mental first aid is is the same as a physical first aid. Right? Everyone knows what a first aider is. You go on a St John's Ambulance course or whoever whatever organization might run the course, and you know how to give that that first assistance should someone, hurt themselves, should someone need some sort of assistance, be that in the work environment or or outside the workplace. Mental health first aid gives gives someone who is experiencing, some sort of mental health issue that reassurance, that that first line of support. One thing I'm very when I was doing my freelance stuff and and even now, I'm I'm not a mental health professional. I'm not medically trained, well, technically trained in any any Gray, shape, or form. But mental health first aid, you go through a routine training Andy you know how to help calm someone down, for example, if they're having, an an anxiety attack, panic attack. I think more common phrases, but we talk about anxiety rather than panic attacks.

Paul Burgess [00:04:22]:

So, yeah, it's just it's just being there to provide that first line of support, Abbott, ultimately, making sure the person who is experiencing that that mental health problem is safe and isn't gonna harm themselves in any way.

Adam Gray [00:04:38]:

So so sales, we we all we all know that sales is a very stressful job. You know, it's, that there are a whole host of reasons for for that, you know, constant, constant, nos from people Andy and, you know, it it undermining people's sense of self worth. Yeah. The the the pressure of having to achieve your number, you know, having a whole host of criteria that you're measured against. Some of which are activity based Andy some of which are results based. So often salespeople are being pounded from, you know, from all sides with things that they have to achieve in ways that they're measured and and challenges that they have to overcome. So I guess what can salespeople do to try to stay in a good place? I mean, clearly, if you're working for a fantastic company that's that's being very supportive and has got loads of resources that are available to you, That's one thing. Abbott, certainly, many salespeople Andy many sales teams feel that they're alone.

Adam Gray [00:05:47]:

So so so what can you do? What what simple steps can you take to hopefully not start to see a deterioration in how you're feeling and and

Paul Burgess [00:05:57]:

that's a good question, Adam. And and, just just a little bit more about my background is I I've been on the other side of the sales, side of things, if that's the right way to say it. But, certainly, when I was in the pharmaceutical industry, I was involved in the sales analytics team. I led the sales analytics team in in a couple of companies. So I would be the one that would help would be helping to set those targets to obviously people out in the field. Andy then that to me, both both activity and sales based. And, and so as you know, I had a lot of contact with salespeople and, you know, and you're you're right. I've had conversations where I said, we we just you know, you feel like you're on your own out there.

Paul Burgess [00:06:38]:

It, especially if you've got a large patch of the country to cover. If you're working up in the north of Scotland, for example, and you've got a huge patch of the country to cover, it can be a little bit lonely out on the road. In terms of what people can do, I think keep keep keep in touch with other people. Make sure you do keep in regular contact with your colleagues. Making sure you're have having those regular conversations. You're not spending too much time on your own. Taking time out to do something different, it's I think it's a little bit it always very easy to get so tied up in in meeting those targets in on activity, meeting those targets on sales, making sure you get that that deal across the line. The it's it can be very easy to forget to take time out of the day.

Paul Burgess [00:07:24]:

I mentioned to you before we came onto the call yesterday. I was I was on social media all day telling people to get out and and and move and get away from their computer. And, actually, I got to half past 5 yesterday afternoon Andy realized I hadn't done that myself. So it is very easy to get tied up sometimes and not take the break that you need away from away from a screen Andy away from driving if it if someone's field based in there Andy they're spending a lot of time in the car. So, yeah, it takes some time even if it is just 10 minutes, to get outside. Go and go and hear the birds sing. Go and go and go and stand on some grass. If you're lucky enough to be by some water, you know, go and go and just have a look at the sea or or the river.

Paul Burgess [00:08:05]:

Listen to properly listen to a piece of music. I mean, you you know this, Adam, what difference a piece of music can make to to, to your mood. And so, actually, you know, switch off totally. Listen listen to one of your favorite bits of music. Properly listen to it, not as background music. And if you are feeling a little bit just a a little bit like you're under too much pressure, tell someone about it. Don't bottle it up. It's the worst thing you could do because it doesn't get any better if you don't talk to anyone about it.

Paul Burgess [00:08:40]:

Yeah. It's

Andy Hough [00:08:41]:

amazing you should say that, Paul, because you should actually see the mood change in Adam's house when he just Gray some music on one of those guitars. It's yeah. That that is Yeah.

Paul Burgess [00:08:50]:

It might make him feel better, but, you know, rest of the family, not so much.

Andy Hough [00:08:53]:

That's Tim mental torture, but we'll we'll we'll spill it over that.

Adam Gray [00:08:58]:

Yeah. So so,

Andy Hough [00:09:01]:

I I

Adam Gray [00:09:04]:

I I I guess that there's, I mean, one of one of the challenges that that I think everybody has in the modern world is that it's really fast paced.

Andy Hough [00:09:13]:

Mhmm.

Adam Gray [00:09:13]:

So, my day today, I'm doing this first thing. I've immediately got a call with a prospective partner, then I'm doing a 2 hour training module, then I've got a 1 hour video call, then I've got a 1 hour training module, then I've got 2 coaching sessions. So literally, with the exception of about 30 minutes, I'm on calls delivering stuff literally all day today. And today is a particularly busy day from that perspective. So, you know, I'm having to, manage my time, making sure I can grab a sandwich, you know, try to finish that call 5 minutes early and start this one 5 minutes late, and dovetail all of this stuff together. And it it doesn't bother me because dovetailing these things back to back is a rarity. Normally, there's an hour here and an hour there during the course of the day when I'm not actually, shoulder to the grindstone. But how how do, a, we recognize that, you know, this too will pass? It's it's all very well that that today is frantic.

Adam Gray [00:10:22]:

Tomorrow will be a lot easier, and I can look forward tomorrow if this was something that was stressing me. But how how do I also spot the the the trait that I'm starting to to to fall into a pit rather than just saying, god. It's a hard day today, which is fine. You know, we we all have hard days. We all have easy days, but there there comes a point, doesn't there, when this this stops being, a, well, I'm glad that's over to oh my god. I wish this was over. So how how do I spot that that it's going from one to the other?

Paul Burgess [00:10:55]:

I mean, first first and foremost, what what you just talked Abbott. So so you got busy days today. There's there's a little bit of pressure there. There might be a little bit of stress involved. And and, stress isn't a bad thing necessarily. The problem starts when that stress doesn't go away. And if we if we go back 1000000 of years, that stress, which is the feeling in the pit your stomach, which is the adrenaline starting to flow Andy you're in a slightly stressful situation, that was really useful to to, our ancestors who who were hunting whatever animals they were hunting to to, you know, get get their dinner or whatever. But we we we don't have to go out and hunt and get our own food.

Paul Burgess [00:11:36]:

I don't know. You might do, but I don't think don't think we go out and hunt for our food. We we don't have to fight other animals, other, other people, to to to get through the day. So we live a a sedentary lifestyle in front of a laptop all day, we but we still get stressed about things Andy certain things. But because we're just sitting down all the Tim, and this is obviously a massive sweeping generalization, but because we're sitting down a lot of the time, that stress doesn't go away. So that stress builds and builds and builds, and that's when the problem can start. It's when the stress starts becoming whilst taking over your life Andy starts making you feel unwell. And that feeling of unwell could be that sent, that sense of dread you you, vocalized just then, which is, oh, no.

Paul Burgess [00:12:23]:

I've gotta get through this. You know, how am I gonna do that? That's it. You know? That Sunday Sunday evening feeling that some people might get before going into work on a Monday morning. Yeah. That that's not ideal. That could be a sign that things are getting a little bit too much. Things like, changing heart rate. So changing heart heart rate when adrenaline kicks in is is normal, but if that continues and that starts to become palpitations, that starts feeling like it might be some kind of anxiety attack, that's not good.

Paul Burgess [00:12:55]:

It could cause problems with your, with your stomach. A lot of people have stomach problems if they're if they're feeling stressed. So so you you your body is really good at telling you if things are getting a little bit too much for you. Yeah. So, I don't think any any of us do it anywhere near enough, but we really should listen to to what our body is telling us. You might be getting might be getting a lot of headaches. You might be feeling very tense. A lot of a lot of stress goes into the shoulders, especially as we're sat at laptops a lot of the time, a lot of us.

Paul Burgess [00:13:28]:

So, yeah, there are plenty of signs. Other things to look out for, especially if you're working with other people and and they they become a little bit with withdrawn, they they don't contact you quite as often as they might do. I know I mean, obviously, a lot of people are still working in that working from home or hybrid environment. If someone's constantly on a on a Tim call or a Zoom call and they're not using their camera, you can only have so many bad hair days. Obviously, me and you, Adam, maybe not so much. But, you know, using the excuse for a bad hair day or not looking great, it it's fine if it's a one off. But if that becomes more regular, then there might be a sign that someone has a deeper problem and just doesn't want to be seen, doesn't want to interact with other people. People working too much.

Paul Burgess [00:14:15]:

So if you're seeing you're working with someone and they're sending emails at 3 o'clock in the morning regularly, then that might be a sign that they're just, you know, go going into that, work work is their way of escaping, but they're not really escaping. It's just making them more stressed. Lots of different signs to look out for.

Adam Gray [00:14:34]:

So if I identify, the the signs in myself or someone around me, what what are the first steps that I can take to start to ease this? I was gonna say alleviate, but Andy and but it's probably probably not such a big step. So ease this this problem.

Paul Burgess [00:14:54]:

So if we if we look at look at stress and mental ill health. So if we think Abbott, a stress container. So if you think, let's have have a think about it. Maybe a big, big vat of grain with a with a wheel at the bottom valve at the bottom that would let it out. If you think of that as being where all your stress goes into. So all of the things that are causing you stress in your life, be it work problems, be it, problems with the relationship, you might have just, someone in the family might have died, You might have money problems. All of those things go into your stress container. And we all we're all we all have resilience to a certain extent to to that amount of stress.

Paul Burgess [00:15:40]:

Abbott sometimes those sometimes you might get something that and that stress container overflows, so you need to release some of the pressure. Ways of releasing the pressure, there are good ways Andy there are lots of good ways. Good ways are things like exercise, you know, going out and going out for a walk. If you're if you've, in sport, football, well, I figured just triggered with Siri. Let's just get that.

Adam Gray [00:16:04]:

Which league? Premier League, Auria?

Paul Burgess [00:16:07]:

Lovely. So, yeah, a sport you might Gray, so tennis, football, walking, running, whatever it might be, get out and do some of that. A hobby, playing the guitar, listening to music, making a puzzle, whatever it might be. Take part in a hobby. They these are all good ways to release the stress. Less helpful ways are that that one glass of wine at the end of the day that turns into a bottle of wine. And that bottle of wine once a week turns into a bottle of wine 2 or 3 times a week Andy then more. Or, drugs, be they recreational or prescription drugs, if someone starts starts, you know, using those more as a way of releasing that pressure, that's not good.

Paul Burgess [00:16:54]:

Over overwork is another not so good way. People think that they're they're dealing with the stress by actually doing more work, but it's not that helpful sometimes. So concentrate on the good ways to release the pressure to to to empty your your stress container a little bit.

Adam Gray [00:17:09]:

Yeah. I mean, I I I think that we've all been through periods when we have been very stressed. I mean, obviously, there'd be many people that are currently in one of those periods. And, and one of the things that I have always and and a friend of mine who who was a counsellor it's interesting having a a friend that's a counsellor because every time you have a conversation with them, they go, but is that really what you feel?

Paul Burgess [00:17:33]:

I know. You got those questions that you have to Yeah. Impressively. Thank you.

Adam Gray [00:17:37]:

Yeah. Andy and he he said he used the expression, wherever I go, there I am. You know? Because to a certain extent, we we we think, Gray. I'm I'm in a really bad place at the moment, either, you know, relationship or money worries or business or overworked or no work to do or whatever whatever the challenge may be. And we tend to think that things will be okay when, you know, when this part when when when we've resolved that, when we've landed that piece of business or when we found that new partner or when this project is put to bed or whatever. Andy, obviously, that's, that's quite dangerous because, a, you can't predict when that's gonna happen, Andy, b, there's normally something that falls at, you know, when you you keep saying, oh, yeah. I can do that. I can do that.

Adam Gray [00:18:25]:

I need more of this. I need more. Then that you you kick that can down the road. So how how can we be more structured about recognizing that we need to live life in in the moment rather than, you know, when I retire, then I'm gonna start to have fun.

Paul Burgess [00:18:43]:

That well, that well, that's a really good a really deep question for 9 o'clock on a Tuesday morning. How can I I mean, I I mean, speaking my personal situation, I'm gonna talk to you about my situation, my my journey with mental health Andy and obviously losing my friend? And that and that one of the one of the reactions to that for me was just, you know, I've just gotta get out and do stuff. Right? We only we Andy have a short period of time on on this, you know, ridiculous place called Earth. So we just got to make the most of it. And you and you it's a cliche, isn't it? But no no one's gonna have written on their gravestone. I wish I'd gone to the office more. So, yeah, just just gotta build those those good things into into each day and actually do the things you you enjoy, do the things that you give for you every day. Andy a good example of this so so when when we went into the pandemic, that that first lockdown, I used to hate my 40 minute drive up towards Heathrow to go into work every day.

Paul Burgess [00:19:52]:

I was doing that 5 days a week, 40 minutes along the m 4, 40 minutes back, and then 40 minutes was was good. It was it was often more than that. I used to hate the commute. When I started working from home during the pandemic, I realized that I needed that commute, so I needed that time to myself. As much as I hated the drive and Andy the journey and being on the m 4, I actually needed that time in the morning to mentally prepare for the day ahead, think about the meetings I had, the people I needed to talk to, the work I needed to do. And at the end of the day, I needed to decompress a little from the day at work. Yeah. So I I turned that into what I called my fake commute during lockdown, and that's that's continued most days of the week now, where I go out for a walk in the morning.

Paul Burgess [00:20:40]:

Look out for a walk, and then at the end of the day, try and go out for a walk at the end of the day as well. And that's that's my thinking time and my decompression time. Although I said, the the roles I have now, I don't feel I need quite so much decompression time at the end of the day. So it's a

Andy Hough [00:20:58]:

less

Paul Burgess [00:20:59]:

a less intense environment than than I worked in when I was in the corporate world. So,

Adam Gray [00:21:04]:

it's it's probably more intense, but it's just more suited to you, and you feel that you're doing something

Paul Burgess [00:21:09]:

Yeah. Yeah. I just I'm I'm, you know, I'm fortunate to be doing work that I absolutely love doing.

Andy Hough [00:21:17]:

But isn't isn't isn't that part of the challenge then?

Paul Burgess [00:21:21]:

That that is part of the challenge, Andy. Yeah. And and, you know, if I look back to what I did in the corporate world, I I was good at what I did, but it was never what I wanted to do. Mhmm.

Andy Hough [00:21:35]:

You know? You just fall into it. I mean, I've been amazingly open. I look back now and I'm I'm not in great places, but I look back now, Paul, and go, I have no idea what the hell I achieved for 16 years in a in one IT supply. And I look back at the behaviors and go, yeah. Okay. Different time. But you go, no. Yeah.

Andy Hough [00:21:58]:

And and you kinda look at it Andy it's to me, it's all it's all about the corporate world's gone a bit skew with. And we we measure everything, but it's all the wrong stuff.

Paul Burgess [00:22:12]:

And and Andy what this measure gets done Yeah. But but it doesn't necessarily mean that those are the right things to measure in the first place.

Andy Hough [00:22:19]:

No. There's I don't I don't know if you

Paul Burgess [00:22:20]:

know one of my pharmaceutical companies when I was in the sales analytics team. What we're gonna measure? And everyone just goes back to let's measure activity. Let's measure sales.

Adam Gray [00:22:30]:

Yeah.

Paul Burgess [00:22:30]:

Abbott how but Abbott how good are the conversations that that the the salespeople are having with the the potential customers of whatever product you have? What, you know Abbott how

Andy Hough [00:22:40]:

do we make those employees feel? So, there's a great tool that we've got which measures employee engagement and experience. And if we look at 2 great authors from Harvard, Amy c Eddington met has measured for 20 odd years psychological safety in the workplace. So if you go and plot the interview, the fearless organization, people who are feeling psychologically safe are in a better place. And there's another one, Sean Acre, the happiness advantage, and happier employees are more productive. Yeah. It's not rocket science. So It's

Paul Burgess [00:23:19]:

not it's not at all, is it?

Andy Hough [00:23:20]:

If if we actually said, you know what, Paul? Yeah. You're in the in the in the analytics team. I want you to measure psychological safety of the team, and I'd love you to measure happiness. Then what we'll

Adam Gray [00:23:31]:

then what we're gonna do

Andy Hough [00:23:32]:

is gonna be really freaking wacky here. We're gonna go and measure how customers feel, the emotions that they get from our salespeople, and we'll we'll we'll prove out actually happier, engaged, psychologically safer employees, give customers a greater time, and it will give more performance.

Paul Burgess [00:23:54]:

Yeah. But we

Andy Hough [00:23:55]:

don't measure that. Abbott, actually, somebody did measure it. They measured it in BT, believe it or not. And they found out that happier salespeople sold 13% more than unhappy salespeople.

Paul Burgess [00:24:08]:

I I what was the criteria of happiness?

Andy Hough [00:24:11]:

I'll find the paper Andy I'll send it over to you.

Paul Burgess [00:24:13]:

That that sounds very interesting.

Andy Hough [00:24:16]:

Because there's another paper. I just tried to get it on there. That's, there's a great paperwork that I'll put out on the stream called can't leave it at home. Okay. And it measures salesperson burnout, but it looks at the three things that salespeople walk in the door with before salespeople even touch them our sales leaders even touch them. But then we manage to accelerate that with, you know, basically deep depersonalization, which is my own personal beef that we teach salespeople. We train them all as if they're equal. It's like Durant learning theory and cognitive learning practice, which you'll be in deeply, tells you that, actually, if you've been in sales or if you've been in any job for 30 years, sticking people in a classroom and saying you will learn by those freighting knowledge to you is is an allergic reaction.

Andy Hough [00:25:05]:

Don't you say that while I just give you 45 PowerPoints, Paul?

Paul Burgess [00:25:09]:

Yep.

Andy Hough [00:25:11]:

Really? What does that help?

Paul Burgess [00:25:12]:

Love it. Abbott love death by PowerPoint. Yeah.

Andy Hough [00:25:16]:

But but that but that's that's the challenge, isn't it?

Paul Burgess [00:25:19]:

Which is

Andy Hough [00:25:19]:

That is. Somehow in sales, we dictate to everybody, we know what you need to know. We know what you need to be measured on, and we're gonna do it to you, not with you. Oh, great. And then that we're surprised that young people don't wanna go into sales anymore because that big secret's happening, isn't it? That forecast Friday.

Paul Burgess [00:25:41]:

We we we love

Adam Gray [00:25:41]:

a bit of forecast Friday. Yeah. We we also love going into the office and not being allowed a chair until we've got our first meeting and a bell to ring every time we get a yeah. Yeah. No. It's it's it's an antiquated way of doing things. So so here's and Rob, obviously, you know, we're we're we're kind of approaching time. So so I I love and I I quote this quite a lot.

Adam Gray [00:26:04]:

I love the the apocryphal story about the guy driving through a town. He he doesn't know. And he pulls over to side of the road, and he says, excuse me. Can you tell me how to get to Main Street? And the guy says, well, I wouldn't start from here if I were you. And it it kinda strikes me that that we have a huge legacy of doing things the wrong way. You know, we've been copying the wrong person's homework, basically, for 50 or a 100 years. So we need to remap everything. So we're putting people so how do things need to change? Paul, what does a what does a decent working day look like, and what are decent objectives that we should be encouraging our our our teams to sign up for?

Paul Burgess [00:26:53]:

I I I think a decent working day will include, and and and how it's structured in terms of what bit comes where will come down to the individual person and and Andy what they need to achieve in that particular day or even in that particular week. So you might have a working week of 5 days. You might have one day where that person's not necessarily doing that much to do with what they need to achieve that week. But if it allows them to do something that they need to achieve personally, which will make put them in a better place mentally, then, yeah, do do we all need to be working 9 to 5, 5 days a week, or do we need to be working the hours it takes to achieve what we want to do? And going going back to not not working silly hours, not working to the early hours of the morning. But but sometimes that might work for someone. And getting getting that work done later on at night might allow them to to spend some more time with their children, Durant the school run, for example. I mean, this is something when when I when I did take redundancy at the end of 2020, I realized that I'd I'd hadn't I hadn't actually done the school run for either my children that much at all. In in all the time I've been at work, I've been out working Andy, you know, it was a it was a rarity if I take one of them to school or or when I picked them up, and I love that.

Paul Burgess [00:28:15]:

Yeah. So so if if if a working day can include trying to do all the things that someone wants wants to do. So a little bit of exercise. If they wanna go for a run-in the morning, then maybe start a little bit later. That shouldn't be a problem. If they wanna spend some time with their family, including dropping kids off at school and picking them up, then that that shouldn't be a problem. That, you know, it should be quite easy to to incorporate that. But you obviously need to be mindful of working working for an organisation.

Paul Burgess [00:28:44]:

You know, organisations are are businesses, and they need to make money. Otherwise, they're not gonna be there. So it is a it there's quite a lot to think Abbott. But I think organizations do need to allow their employees time to do the things that that will make them in a in a better space mentally. Allow them time to to, you know, do do the things they enjoy, and and not and not just do a tick tick box exercise. I think this is what I started to see, especially at the back of the, that whole lockdown period. Some organizations were putting things in place, and it seemed like they were just ticking a box. I remember working for 1 doing a a a presentation to 1 company, and I talked about what I was gonna cover.

Paul Burgess [00:29:37]:

And I talked about allowing people time away from their desk, if they needed to get out get away, and was told by the HR team, oh, you can't say that. We don't like them to be away from their desk during working hours. You're like, Gray. Why why are you employing me to come and talk about mental well-being if you're saying that people can't can't leave their desk?

Adam Gray [00:29:57]:

Yeah. Exactly.

Paul Burgess [00:29:58]:

Don't don't just get someone in to talk about it and then just not do it at all. But but for me but the the the the big big learning point for me is my fake commute. I'd I I need that time at the beginning of the day to to think about how the day's gonna go and at the end of the day to, decompress a little bit.

Adam Gray [00:30:18]:

Brilliant. So, Paul, thank you so much. What a fantastic insight, and, thank you everyone in the audience and people that are gonna be watching this, subsequently. So how can people get in touch with you, Paul?

Paul Burgess [00:30:34]:

Find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the best way to to get in touch me. I will I'm happy to connect with anyone who feels they might wanna connect with me and talk a little bit more.

Adam Gray [00:30:44]:

Fantastic. So, thank you all very much indeed. We'll see you on on tonight's show hopefully or next week. So until then, have a great week,

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