Sales isn’t about closing deals at any cost - it’s about creating trust, delivering value, and engaging authentically with buyers. Joining us on this episode of SalesTV is Andy Paul, a renowned sales expert and author of "Sell Without Selling Out", whose decades of experience have shaped a groundbreaking approach to human-centered selling.

In this episode, we’ll ask:

* How does being more human directly impact your win rate?

* What outdated tactics are sabotaging your sales success?

* How can salespeople build trust quickly and effectively?

* What does it mean to create value in every buyer interaction?

Andy’s career spans global sales leadership roles and the publication of best-selling books that challenge the traditional sales playbook. As the host of the Win Rate Podcast, he shares insights from decades of experience, helping sellers improve their win rates by focusing on trust, value, and authentic engagement. His work has helped countless professionals break free from old habits and achieve greater results through human-centered selling.

Join us live for a transformative conversation that could reshape how you approach your next deal. Explore how sellers can succeed by rejecting outdated, manipulative tactics and embracing trust, value, and authentic engagement with buyers.

Facts, the latest thinking, chat, and banter about the world of sales.

This week's Guest was -

• Andy Paul, a renowned sales expert, host of The Win Rate Podcast, and author of "Sell Without Selling Out"

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results and CEO of US Operations at The Institute of Sales Professionals

Transcript of SalesTV.live Mid-Day Edition 2025-01-28

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of sales TV live. Today, we're challenging you to stop acting like a seller and start succeeding in sales. I'm joined by renowned sales expert, podcast host, and author, Andy Paul. Andy's career spans global sales leadership roles and the publication of best selling books that challenge the traditional sales playbook. His insights have helped countless professionals break free from old habits and achieve greater results through human centered selling. Andy, welcome.

Andy Paul [00:00:45]:

Rob, thanks for having me.

Rob Durant [00:00:48]:

My pleasure. Andy, let's start just by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Andy Paul [00:00:58]:

Yeah. I don't think your show's that long. Yeah. I I started my career in in tech, selling big computer systems. I worked at Apple in the very early days, worked a number of startups, oftentimes served first person in, developing sales teams, did that for about twenty close to twenty five years, and then started my own company in the year 02/ to really help, my, really, my expertise have been as as selling big deals for no name companies. Right? Companies that have no track record, no products, sometimes no products, no brand recognition. And how how do you go out and compete against really big companies and win big deals? And so started my company in year 2000, consult with, you know, small and midsize companies, teach them how to win big deals. Gosh.

Andy Paul [00:01:50]:

Did that for about fifteen years and then started selling podcasts, book business, thought leadership, if you will. I've been doing that since, gosh. Yeah. So I produced about twelve, thirteen hundred podcast episodes, written 3 books. Got myself busy.

Rob Durant [00:02:10]:

Excellent. So real slouch.

Andy Paul [00:02:13]:

Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, now it's been fun.

Rob Durant [00:02:18]:

Awesome. So, Andy, I wanna jump right into it for our audience. In your opinion, how does being more human directly impact sellers' win rates?

Andy Paul [00:02:32]:

Well, I think it's defining what's what I mean by being more humid and a human. And I think that that, you know, my last book, sell without selling out, I'd so there's really 4 sort of core human competencies that if you can serve become proficient in these, that really the only tools you need to really be successful in sales. And those were ability to connect with other human beings, curiosity, understanding, and generosity, the last 1, being helpful, helping people make decisions to make changes on their business. And and to do it sort of because that's you're there to help them as opposed to extract something in exchange for that help. And that's that's really what it is. It's just, you know, leaning into just what's it mean to be a human that's interested in other people first. Right? And to show up curious to learn about other people and to make a real effort to understand them. Because in the last twenty, twenty five years, selling in general has become so transactional.

Andy Paul [00:03:32]:

Right? And and some of this is the impact of sales technology, you know, CRM systems that say, look, let's institutionalize these stages of a sales process. And this is the way the world operates, Except that's not the way the world operates. It's not the way buyers operate. Right? So sellers now are, by and large, are following these 8 or 9 stages in a, you know, prescribed sales process that's completely parallel to what the the path the buyer's on, and never the twain shall meet. And, you know, as a result, we sort of lost this this ability to really, let's say, connect with our buyers because, hey. We're just gonna put you as sort of an input into our our, you know, mechanized selling process, and the output's gonna be you're gonna buy from me. And, yeah, lo and behold, over the last twenty, five, five years, we find that actually smaller percentage of buyers actually will buy from you if you do that.

Rob Durant [00:04:25]:

So if it's about human connection, how do you teach the ability to connect?

Andy Paul [00:04:34]:

Well, part of it is is reframing the idea of what you think selling is. And I think this is doesn't get enough attention. And if you ask most salespeople, what's your job? And I to me, they give an answer that I call I label as 3 p selling. Well, my job is to pitch, push, and persuade you to buy my product. And, yeah, it's not the job at all. Right? The job is to help somebody make a decision to make a change in their business. Right? Buying something represents making a change in your business in some dimension. Well, if you show up with the frame that I'm here to help you make that decision, then to be able to do that, you need to start building some trust.

Andy Paul [00:05:20]:

Right? You need to have some that low ability to be able to connect with someone on a on an emotional level. And, you know, it's a term that people hate using about sales is, you know, emotional level. We gotta connect with someone. Buyers don't have time for that. But the fact is that all the studies have done about buying behavior pretty much in the last five plus years have said, look. Now that's the number 1 factor that drives buying decisions is emotion based. It's not you know, it's like, do I trust you? I mean, trust is an emotion to some degree. Right? I mean, do I trust you? Do you have credibility? Are you someone I wanna take advice from? So you just have to show up really and learn how to say, okay.

Andy Paul [00:06:03]:

If I'm my job is to help you make a decision instead of push, then I have to show up and be interested in you. First and foremost, I don't have to have I have to care about what you're trying to accomplish. And if you do that, then that's sort of the the first step to learning how to connect with people.

Rob Durant [00:06:20]:

I think you and I are on the same page in that regard. As you know, I teach a marketing class at Northeastern University. Yesterday in class, from the mouths of babes Yeah. I heard 1 of my students ask something along the lines of, but what happens when the customer's interest, the prospect's interest aren't aligned with mine? You smile. You laugh, but we're still facing that challenge today. I gave him an answer, and I was happy with it, but I would really be curious to hear what you would respond to a question like that.

Andy Paul [00:07:03]:

Well, yeah, that very simple answer to that. Go find someone whose interests are aligned with yours. I mean, there's somebody out there for everybody, and, you know, that's not the right way to for them to approach it. But my first boss had and this has stuck with me forever. A guy named Ray, and Ray is a great sales manager. And I remember going into him early in my career and saying started complaining after a hard week out in the field saying, no one's interested to buy what we have. And he said, well, go find someone who is. And and it's part of what his thing was.

Andy Paul [00:07:44]:

It's a big world out there. Right? And we're just we never never do more than just sort of scratch the surface. Always somebody out there that if you're targeted enough, that if you're focused enough on what you're doing, you'll find someone that's interested in what you're doing. Now the key to that, though, is you have to show up and be interested in them first and foremost. Right? Because it's a 2 way street. But if you are really dialed in on what you can do to help somebody, then, yeah, you'll probably show up a little more curious about, how can I help this person? As opposed to, how can I persuade them to buy my products?

Rob Durant [00:08:25]:

But there are a lot of sales professionals that struggle with being curious, being authentic while under pressure to hit quotas. What advice would you give to them to help navigate that tension?

Andy Paul [00:08:44]:

This is yeah. I'm distilling decades of experience here. But your success in individual seller is situational. You have to keep that in mind. Yeah. I've seen it time and time again that people succeed in 1 place and think, hey. I'm gonna go, you know, grab for the brass ring at this other location, this other company, and they fail. And it's not because they suddenly became a bad salesperson, but it wasn't the right situation for them.

Andy Paul [00:09:12]:

Yeah. They wasn't you know, they went maybe for the wrong reasons. Maybe they weren't set just, you know, supported the same way or set to succeed the same way. And so as a seller, it's really your obligation, your responsibility for your career and your livelihood to say, what's the right situation for me? And it may be that the boss you're working for or the process they use is so, you know, formulaic linear sequential sales process, which unfortunately too many companies do, and and you're not able to express yourself and not able to bring your personality to the selling, you know, everything's heavily scripted, then that's not your environment. And, yeah, my last book was really about that. The subtitle of my book was A Guide to Success on Your Own Terms. And so I determined pretty early in my career that after, actually, after my first sales training class with this company called Burrows, at time 1 of the biggest computer companies in the world, you know, these videotapes are watching them from the sales trainer just made my skin crawl. And I said, look, I'm either gonna have the shortest career in sales or I'm gonna have to figure out a way to do this that that fits with who I am.

Andy Paul [00:10:23]:

And so I've really spent I hate to say how long I've been doing this. I spent the entire time saying, look, I'm going to do it the way that I think plays to my strengths. And, yes, I'm open to input and, gosh, I've been influenced by lots of people, but there are times I've told bosses no. Right? I think you should go do this. No. I don't think so. You know, I sort of developed a reputation as 1 company I've served. Yeah.

Andy Paul [00:10:54]:

I don't wanna say a doctor. No. But but, yeah, my boss and I said, don't you ever say yes to anything? I said, well, look. Here's the thing. Is you can tell me to go do something, you know, do this approach take this approach with a customer or customer, you know, use this tactic. And I said, I could do that. But if it doesn't work, who gets fired? Me or you? So if it's my butt on the line, I'm gonna go out my way. If I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail my way.

Andy Paul [00:11:22]:

I'm not gonna fail your way. And I think it's really important for sellers to say, look. You have the ability to change that because there are some really good managers out there. Just like there are customers that are interested, you know, a number of customer interest in buying what you have. Go find those people because they'll be transformational for your career. You know, as a seller, you're hiring a boss and you're hiring a situation and just need to keep that in mind.

Rob Durant [00:11:52]:

It's interesting that you say that because I've seen the same on the opposite side where the hiring managers look at somebody with success in a different role and expect that it translates. What would you say to the hiring managers in that regard?

Andy Paul [00:12:12]:

Yeah. Long long topic, but here's here's 1 answer. That several lines are the lines up with the question you asked. But hiring managers in general, you know, I talk to VPs about, okay. We've got an open spot and, you know, tell me what you're looking for. Here's what we're looking for. I said, okay. Well, let me ask you a question.

Andy Paul [00:12:35]:

Have you ever asked your customers what they need your salespeople to be? The answer is no. I was like, well, this is this is you know, they're the customer of the service you're providing to help them make a decision. What help do they need from you in order to make that decision? And so how's that translate in what the skills and attributes and experience set that your salespeople need to have in order to be able to help the buyer? And it's like, Oh, no. Because we look at selling as something that we sort of imposed on buyers. I want you to be a closer. I want you to be a hunter. We've got all these adjectives we use that are completely useless to a buyer. And we really need to get, that's what I talked earlier, right at the top, is we have to reframe how we think about selling.

Andy Paul [00:13:26]:

And if our job is to help, we're not just pitch, push and sway, but to help someone make a change decision, then what at the side? What skills and attributes does a seller need to have to be able to help the buyer do that?

Rob Durant [00:13:42]:

So how does the seller balance the the need to meet those needs of the buyer while at the same time advancing their own sale through the pipeline?

Andy Paul [00:13:56]:

Well, why are they different? I mean, that's really the question. Why are they different? You know, they're different in part because, again, how we're framing it. We're saying, look, your job as a seller is you're gonna you know, here's 9 steps. You're gonna make contact. You're gonna have an initial discovery call. You're gonna present the product. You're gonna schedule a demo. You're gonna have a demo.

Andy Paul [00:14:17]:

You're gonna present a proposal, present a contract, negotiate a sale, and close the deal. It's like, okay. How does any of those help the buyer make a decision to make a change in their business? None. Not single 1 of those steps, maybe the demo a little bit help them, but they're all about you as a seller. Whereas what the buyer needs is buyer says, look, we're not really not even sure we know what, you know, the real scope of our problem is or, you know, what the opportunity it presents us in terms of the outcomes we're gonna achieve by making a change. Help me understand that. Where's that fit on those 9 steps? It doesn't. So we have to, I said, reframe this to say, look, my job is I'm gonna help you understand what your problems are.

Andy Paul [00:15:03]:

Bring our expertise and our experience to bear and our experience with other customers to bear to help you understand, perhaps what the real challenges you're facing, help you understand what the business opportunity that exists to achieve certain outcomes. And we're gonna help you, you know, make a better decision about how you can achieve those changes. But it's not about coming and pushing my product. It's about helping you do those things.

Rob Durant [00:15:29]:

That reframing is dramatically different from what most salespeople encounter. Yes. To be to say the least.

Andy Paul [00:15:39]:

Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:15:41]:

Do we start this as a top down change, or do we really need a Skunk Works bottom up approach?

Andy Paul [00:15:53]:

I think it's a combination of both. Right? The fact is you look in most organizations, b 2 b sales organization, you you take the top, you know, 5% of sellers. That's this is what they're doing. This is what they're doing. I mean, this is, like, this is not something just made up. I mean, this is this is this is what I did, and they closed $6.07, $8.09 figure deals around the world. So oftentimes working for startups that, let's say, had no track record, no branding. In some cases, we didn't even have the product.

Andy Paul [00:16:25]:

But, yeah, we help the customer think differently about the challenges they're facing and the outcomes they potentially could achieve. And we we I'd like to say is, you know, when you do this right, the buyers actually hire you to help them make their decisions. Right? If you're if you think about this in the context of the jobs to be done theory, right, is that, you know, Clayton Christensen talked about this, you know, we we hire we don't buy products. We hire products to help us make progress in some dimension of our lives. Well, that's really what our buyers are doing. They're hiring us to help them make progress toward making a change decision. And in today's world, if you're actually a if you're a salesperson, the buyer is actually investing time in you. It's not be they're not talking to you because they want to.

Andy Paul [00:17:17]:

Talking to you because they need to. Right? If they could do it on their own, they would in a heartbeat, but they're talking to you because they need to. There's some help they need from you, and your job as seller find out what that help is and provide it.

Rob Durant [00:17:33]:

So that brings me to the next question, and I'm sure we could talk for hours on this alone. Mhmm. But how do tools like automation and AI, help or hinder this smarter approach to selling?

Andy Paul [00:17:51]:

Okay. Well, let's let's just start with the premise, which is sort of controversial, but whatever. Is you know, the because the data is very clear on this. For all intents and purposes, that sales technology revolution of last fifteen, twenty years has been a bust. It has not helped sellers get better at their jobs. It has not helped sellers win a higher fraction of deals. Best data I've seen is that win rates over the last twenty years have actually dropped 2% despite the tens of billions of dollars invested in sales technology. Now the problem though isn't really the technology.

Andy Paul [00:18:26]:

It's how it's being used. Right? Because it's being used to do this 3 p selling. Basically, we said, look. Let's use this technology and automate all the sales bad sales behaviors we did before. And the result is, you know, sellers aren't any better. Oh, sure. You know, I can send a hundred emails in a flat blink of an eye, but so what? No one's responding to them. No one's opening them.

Andy Paul [00:18:49]:

That's not that's not productive behavior. But in terms of using the technology, if you look at any of the sales technologies that you know of, you know, I challenge most people to say, okay. Name me 1 that's actually designed to help the buyers make their decisions. None. Right? They're all about doing more, more, more emails, more messages, more. It's like, hey, folks, we don't need more of that. And when we have, you know, a b to b sales industry with average win rates from 16 to 20%, the last thing in the world we need are more prospects. We need to do better with the prospects we have.

Andy Paul [00:19:30]:

And yet we spend a disproportionate amount of our energy and time as a sales profession, sales industry focused on pipeline generation. Well, hey, if you double your win rates, you're not gonna need as much pipeline. And I tell you, it's much easier to learn how to increase your win rates than to try to generate 2 x pipeline you need to grow with this horrible win rate. And this this this is a message that's escaped sales leaders last twenty, twenty years because they're so, you know, in love with the technology. It's like the technology is not helping you get where you where you need to be and certainly not helping you get where the buyers need to be.

Rob Durant [00:20:13]:

So for all of the salespeople in the audience

Andy Paul [00:20:17]:

Yes.

Rob Durant [00:20:18]:

What is the 1 thing they could do to start today to prioritize trust, value, and authentic engagement?

Andy Paul [00:20:31]:

Show up and be interested in the person you're speaking with. Not truly interested. Right? I mean, I I look back and start my career. I I started selling big computer systems to into the construction industry, primarily. And my first job, I as 21, I looked 15, if I looked that. I knew next to nothing about business. Yes. Fresh out of school.

Andy Paul [00:21:02]:

I had a history major. Yeah. I had taken computer science and so on. So, yeah, pretty smart person in general, but I could figure things out. But but I said, yeah, if I just show up and because I'm a curious type of person, just interested in them and, you know, what they wanted to achieve and where they'd come from and what their goals and ambitions were and so on. I found these hard bitten CEOs of these construction companies, these entrepreneurs of my father's generation gave me all the time in the world to talk with them because I showed up interested, sincerely interested in what they wanted to do and what was important to them. And that's really the key to connecting with any any human being is do you show a level of interest in them? And if you can do that, then that starts to open the doors to building a level of credibility and trust that enables you then to really learn about their business and understand about their business, get the information you need from them to do that. So, yeah, just show up and that's it.

Andy Paul [00:22:06]:

Be interested. And that's hard to do if you're showing up and saying, yeah, my job is to pitch you because that's that's the opposite of being interested because you're making it all about yourself.

Rob Durant [00:22:20]:

Really simple stuff.

Andy Paul [00:22:23]:

It is.

Rob Durant [00:22:25]:

Awesome. Andy, this has been great. How can people learn more? Where can they get in touch with you? Of course, LinkedIn, I presume.

Andy Paul [00:22:33]:

Yeah. LinkedIn's the best way to do it. Yeah, click here from there. It's the usual LinkedIn preamble and then real Andy Paul, if you wanna search. Yeah. I have a podcast called The Win Rate Podcast that you've been a guest on before. And, yeah, people can check that out. Yeah.

Andy Paul [00:22:52]:

Those are 2 good places to to start.

Rob Durant [00:22:57]:

Fantastic. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get show highlights, beyond the show insights, and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at salestv.live and click on newsletter. This has been another edition of Sales TV Live. On behalf of the panelists and everyone at Sales TV, to our guests and to our audience, thank you for being a part of today's conversation, and we'll see you next time. Thank you.

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