Role-playing is often dreaded by sales teams, but when done right, it can be a powerful tool for skill development. This week on SalesTV.live we will explore how to break down the barriers to effective role-play and make it a valuable part of your training program. Joining us is Cameron Badger, Founder & CEO of PraxisPro, who brings a unique perspective from his extensive experience in pharmaceutical sales and sales training.

In this episode, we'll ask:

* Why do sales reps dislike role-playing, and how can we change that perception?

* What part does creating a safe environment play in successful role-play sessions?

* How can managers facilitate role-play without adding stress or judgment?

* What are practical ways to implement role-playing in ongoing sales training programs?

Cameron has spent years navigating the nuances of sales training in high-compliance industries like pharmaceuticals. His experience in building field-focused training solutions offers insights into how sales teams can overcome the challenges of traditional role-playing to develop their skills effectively.

Facts, the latest thinking, chat, and banter about the world of sales.

Come and join us for some lively discussion and debate.

This week's Guest was -

• Cam Badger, Founder and CEO of PraxisPro

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results

Transcript of SalesTV.live Mid-Day Edition 2024-10-30

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of Sales TV Live. Today, we're examining why your sales team hates role play and how to fix it. I'm joined by Cam Badger. Cam has spent years navigating the nuances of sales training in high compliance industries like pharmaceuticals. Now the founder and CEO of Praxis Pro, he brings a unique perspective from his extensive experience in sales and sales training. Cam, welcome.

Cam Badger [00:00:43]:

Thank you, Rob. Great to be here. Super happy and excited for this experience.

Rob Durant [00:00:48]:

Likewise. Cam, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Cam Badger [00:00:58]:

Yeah. Absolutely. So I I started my career about 12 years ago in the pharmaceutical industry mainly on the commercial side of the business. So I started off as a sales rep, and like a lot of early sales reps had a lot of challenges growing into that role, and really seeking out different ways to to get better, and perform better in in my territory. And so eventually moved on to the sales training role and really found a passion for developing, coaching, and helping sales reps come in as new new hires to an organization, and eventually seeing their way to president's club. And then eventually moved into different sales leadership roles, and then most recently, have found myself in in my founder's journey, in bringing a solution to the market to really help those early sales reps like I was.

Rob Durant [00:01:47]:

Excellent. Well, thank you for that. Kim, let's jump right into it now. Why do you believe sales reps dislike role playing?

Cam Badger [00:01:58]:

Yeah. It's a good question. I think that when it comes down to role playing, it's it's all about the comfort of the environment. I think that, you know, sales professionals truly want to get better at what they do because there's nothing like when you're in that flow state of a sales call, and you're confident, you're hitting all your messages, and you can see the progression really happening for the customer, and you're truly helping that customer either identify and solve a problem, and specifically in the pharmaceutical industry, it leads to helping more patients down the road. So I think that sales reps truly want to get better. It just comes down to the environment that is set up for that learner to ultimately grow, develop, and feel safe in where they can make mistakes, and then grow from the feedback of those mistakes. Oftentimes that doesn't happen, but it it really is, just the culture around role playing, that I feel like has has become challenging. But there's a lot of different solutions that are out there to make it a better, more enjoyable, more safe, more growth, minded experience.

Rob Durant [00:03:05]:

Let's talk a little bit about that. What part does creating a safe environment play in successful role playing sessions, and and what can we do to create that safe environment?

Cam Badger [00:03:18]:

Yeah. I think that it it's falls on the leaders that are that are really curating the environment, whether that be the frontline sales manager, the sales trainer that is effectively leading that that exercise or that training course, and making sure that sales professionals know that this is a place where they could make mistakes. Right? You almost equate it to in sports. In practice, you want your team to make mistakes and really push themselves to the limits, so that when they get into the game, they're extremely prepared, for for how to combat any sort of objection or any sort of challenge that may come their way. So I think it starts with setting expectations that this is an environment to learn, develop, grow, and challenge yourself, And then it's on that sales trainer to also or that sales coach to also give meaningful and actionable feedback that then that rep can take and develop themselves over time. I think one of the things that when we think about role playing, it's not gonna always you're not gonna see the fruits of that role play right away. You're gonna have to continue to get reps, and I like to say that reps need reps to to ultimately get better. But you're gonna have to continue to grow and kinda build on those role plays over time to really build that confidence level, to go out and make impact with your customers.

Rob Durant [00:04:37]:

In my experience, one of the reasons that sales reps don't like role plays is because it can be stressful. How can managers facilitate role play without adding stress to the sales rep, without judgment?

Cam Badger [00:04:57]:

Yeah. I think that there is there's there's 2 parts of that. Right? There there is there actually is a healthy level of stress that comes with role playing that you want to create. Right? There is an anxiety that comes with, with the role play because that's a reality of the actual interaction that you're gonna have with your customer. There's gonna be a little bit of anxiety there when you're asking or challenging a customer to maybe think different or, purchase your solution or whatever that may be. But I think it starts with, again, that coach making sure that they're setting up their reps to be successful, with the environment and and making sure that they feel like, hey, I'm here to help you. I'm gonna give you some some tough love and some tough feedback, but it's gonna be actionable feedback that you can be better at, coming out of this role play. And we can continue to go back and practice and practice and practice again to make sure that your confidence level with whatever the skill that you're trying to develop in that role play elevates so that you can then go make impact in front of that customer.

Rob Durant [00:06:00]:

Can you give us some examples of effective role playing exercises for sales teams of various, sales experience levels?

Cam Badger [00:06:13]:

Yeah. I think that, you know, when I'm in the in the pharmaceutical industry, one of the the types of role plays that I used to like to do was called round robin, where we would actually have an entire message of, a specific area of the brand or the product that we were selling, but we would we would break it down into little micro pieces or essentially micro learning sessions for the sales professionals. We wouldn't have one specific rep stand up in front of the room and talk through that entire message, but we would actually have 1 rep talk to the opener, 1 rep talk through maybe it was the efficacy of the product, 1 rep talk to the safety. So then that way, they were learning and able to hear the rep before them and the rep after them, and what their messaging sounds like. I would always coach our sales professionals to just take bits and pieces from everyone else's game, and then eventually add it to theirs as well. But it's another another way or another activity for sales reps to constantly message, get those reps in on specific parts of the of the message or of the the selling process, and then continue to build on that as they go through different workshops and training, within the curriculum.

Rob Durant [00:07:25]:

Okay. In that sense, how do you measure the effectiveness of role play?

Cam Badger [00:07:33]:

Yeah. So I think that it it's it's an interesting thing when you think about pharmaceutical sales training specifically, and then the effectiveness of that rep when they're out in the territory because you you only have that rep out of territory doing that training for a certain amount of time. But what we do know is that when the rep gets into the field, they do have a field manager that is complimenting that rep and is coaching them on a monthly or or quarterly basis. Right? So you're actually able to see the compound effect of consistent role play, consistent practice, in front of the customer live when that manager is with them. Now, I think that's that's where the big challenge is now with the industry today is that once the rep gets out into the field, how do you actually continue to develop that sales professional, continue to raise their skill level higher and higher, and then also raise their confidence level, as they're out in the field. That is one of the challenges that we are seeing, because all of these organizations want to keep their reps in territory, they want to keep their reps in front of their customer, and that's where a lot of the actual feed or actual skill is seen by the field manager. So, right now, it's observed by the manager, but we wanna find different ways for them to continue to develop their selling skills on the go anytime, anywhere, and evaluate be evaluated by their manager on how those skills are being developed.

Rob Durant [00:09:00]:

So how do we balance the infield with, bringing them back to HQ for for training? What type of cadence should we have there? How often Yeah. Should you include a, a role playing training in a sales professionals, ongoing training and development?

Cam Badger [00:09:29]:

Yeah. I I think that there's the the power of role play, it it needs to be used daily in my opinion from a sales professionals vantage point. I remember being a young rep in my car. I remember being a tenured rep in my car going from customer to customer, and just verbalizing the message out loud, so that I can get get as many consistently, consistent times verbalizing what I was gonna say when I was standing, you know, in a in that hallway trying to impact a doctor that I may only have 30 seconds to 2 minutes to really make an impact with. So I think that there needs to be a a a way for reps to practice in a way that's dynamic and and offers actionable feedback on a daily basis. I don't what I don't want to do is neglect the the power of the in person experience that happens at all of these companies. Right? It there it's definitely a culture building experience, it's definitely, a way to connect with your coworkers in ways that you you otherwise are not because a lot of these sales professionals that are in outside sales are are on a on an island. Right? They are in their territory most of the time, it could be a very lonely job.

Cam Badger [00:10:39]:

So I completely understand that, and the culture that that organizations want to build. However, I do believe that there is there there needs to be more dynamic ways for reps to own their learning and development in their territory, where and when they need it the most, which is as they're going from customer to customer.

Rob Durant [00:11:00]:

I I wanna dig into that a a little bit. You said reps should be owning their development. How do we foster that sense of ownership? How do we, first of all, just make sure they understand that's part of their job because that that's not commonplace, is it?

Cam Badger [00:11:27]:

Yeah. I think that I think there's a misconception about sales professionals that they that, you know, that we already know everything about our customer. We know how to message to our customer. We we we, you know, we have this amazing relationship that moves the the sale process forward. I believe in my experience with the reps that I have managed, with the reps that I've coached when I was a sales rep myself, we all wanna be better. Right? As I mentioned before, when when our sales professionals in that flow state and you are truly helping somebody identify more patients in the case of pharmaceuticals or identify a problem that's gonna help them save a ton of money, there is no better feeling. Right? So I I do believe that sales professionals want to be the most prepared that they can be going into interactions. I do believe if they had this the the appropriate tools that truly fit into their workflow, would would take advantage of those tools to make sure that they were they were at the top of their game.

Cam Badger [00:12:30]:

You know, you see a lot of sales professionals that, come out of previous athletic histories, right, where where they where they played sports in high school, maybe even even in college, hypercompetitive, individuals that come into a hypercompetitive, landscape from a career perspective as well. So when we think about the the competition aspect, sales professionals want to be the best. They want to be at the top of that leaderboard so that they can ensure that either they're they're getting, you know, they're getting the the accolades that come with that and and the other, resources that come with that. But in order to be at the top of that that leader board, it's all about your skill level. Right? And how good are you in front of the customer? And I think that that that the core of that starts with how well can I develop my selling skills to eventually be at the top of that leaderboard?

Rob Durant [00:13:29]:

I I wanna come back to something we touched upon when it comes to, the role play, creating a safe environment, adding, without adding stress or judgment. What are the best ways to provide constructive feedback during the role play session, and how do you reinforce that after the fact?

Cam Badger [00:13:55]:

Yeah. Early and often. I think that feedback needs to be something that is given directly, knowing that it's coming from a place of, of of pure development and wanting you to do to get developed, but it it needs to happen as soon as possible and as often as possible in in the learning process around what could be better. The interesting thing specifically, and I know I keep going back to the pharmaceutical industry, but pharmaceutical industry is really focused on when when they when reps go into new hire training at least, it's very focused on compliance certification. So as the rep is going through their new hire training, doing their role plays, everything that they're doing is focused on how do I complete that certification at the end of this training scenario or training class to make sure that I'm certified and then go out in the field. So as a as a sales trainer, as a sales leader, we we really work hard to ensure that sales reps are the most comfortable that they can be, but are still challenged. We still wanna put them in that, kind of box of anxiety a little bit that they will be in front of their customer, but make sure that they can hit their message appropriately and compliantly to make sure that they can then go out into the field and make impact, and not put the organization at risk from a compliance or or, off label messaging perspective as well. But I think again, it starts with the environment that is created by the leaders in that room, to make sure that the sales reps are able to to be impactful, to grow in that time, and they go out and make impact.

Rob Durant [00:15:31]:

How do you handle resistance from team members who are skeptical of role plays? Or I don't do role plays.

Cam Badger [00:15:41]:

It's a it's a great point. And and, you know, oftentimes you find that it a lot of these sales meetings, you've got clicks that kinda get together and they're like, hey, I'll role play with you and you, you know, you be the doctor, and I'll take it easy on you and, you know, you know, you're gonna have that in any bunch. Right? I think that just like in in any sort of sales organization, you're gonna have your top third, your your kinda your middle third, and then and then your bottom half that's that's not gonna really be focused on developing their skills to to really elevate themselves at the company. They're just trying to get by on a day to day basis. I think that that's there's a reality of that in any organization, not just on the commercial side of the business in in in pharma. And I think that, I think that those sales professionals that that have struggled with the idea of role play have been in bad situations. They have had, former for previous trauma, if you will, around role play that that hasn't really helped them. So I think that there are there are a lot of ways that we are now seeing whether it's AI being used or or different ways to help that sales rep create a new dynamic experience for them, that could actually challenge them.

Cam Badger [00:16:57]:

And I think that's what a lot of those more tenured sales professionals that have been in the industry, you know, 10, 15, 20 years, they wanna be challenged. And the traditional way role playing happens because in the pharma industry, it's so prescriptive a lot of times, it's not the most challenging. And so we're actually trying to find ways to solve that problem for that more tenured rep to challenge them, push them in ways they haven't been pushed, and and give them a a new dynamic experience that that really fits where they are in their career.

Rob Durant [00:17:33]:

So there used to be a day where you just pull everyone into a room and say, hey. We're gonna do training. We're going to do role play.

Cam Badger [00:17:42]:

Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:17:43]:

We have more and more virtual teams, remote teams. And then to your point, we have the field sales where it's just not feasible to do that regularly. How can these virtual teams effectively implement role playing exercises?

Cam Badger [00:18:03]:

Yeah. It's a good question. I think that I think the virtual teams have a lot more tools than the outside sales teams have. You know, you look at platforms like Gong, you look at platforms like Dialpad that are at able to be in this virtual world with us, give us feedback, allow us to to even go back to the recording of the interaction and and hear ourselves and, well, that that's great. I think that that's that's, you know, that that's exactly what the outside sales teams want in certain ways, but there's not a lot of those solutions that fit into the pharmaceutical industry specifically because of the compliance and regulatory landscape that these companies operate in. And I think that that's that is that is an area of the the industry that that, that really needs solutions to give that type of feedback that is aligned to that organization and that sales reps workflow. Pharma is very different from a lot of others outside sales and even inside sales types of roles. But I do see a lot of tools that are out there that are using inside sales that would provide value, but they just there it's it's tough to make it fit into the outside sales, into that world.

Rob Durant [00:19:21]:

That makes sense. Let's talk at a higher level for a moment. Let's talk about mindset. What mindset shifts are necessary to make role playing a positive and impactful training tool.

Cam Badger [00:19:39]:

Yeah. I think that it's gonna be a shift from I think by how the role playing happens, how do we present role playing in a way that, can again add value? That's what we need to focus on. It does the actual role play add value to the sales rep, to the user, to the learner. And if we can find a way to do that, I think that's the that's the heaviest lift. Once a sales rep says, hey, I did this role play through this platform or through, you know, whatever method, and I immediately felt like I was better in that interaction, that's that's where you're gonna win over those sales reps that you mentioned before that may, you know, cross their arms when they think about role playing or team up with a with a friend that they, you know, haven't seen in a long time at at the next national sales meeting. So I think it's how we reframe, role playing and and see the value coming out of it, that then will get sales professionals to continue to go back to it. But again, I think that that that that begins with the leadership setting expectations, creating an environment that is that is, conducive and, works well for the learner and for the sales rep. And then you acknowledge that sales rep that that has has gone through it, done a very good job, and has, you know, gotten feedback.

Cam Badger [00:21:04]:

And, I think that there's ways to highlight sales professionals, and I think that sales professionals want to be highlighted for the work that they do, and and and shown, you know, what good looks like or or what the best type of role play was or how that sounded. And that helps the entire organization. Right? That hearing somebody else's message that is working well, that is out performing in their territory, that really helps build a culture of learning, a culture of development, and a culture of owning your your skill development, as you as you kinda move through your experience at an organization.

Rob Durant [00:21:42]:

I think you really nailed it there with the add value part. I think the resistance that I had alluded to comes from the mindset that this has always been a waste of time. This will always be a waste of time. And that's a dangerous road to, have your sales team go down because there are those that haven't necessarily had the exposure to a bad role play process. But now they are, like you said, part of that click, part of that group that that just tags along with it. What about when it comes to new products, new services, or market changes? So often, those are delivered in, you know, a a a quick snippet. Here's the memo on the the latest change. Talk to me about your opinion on on role play in that kind of scenario.

Cam Badger [00:22:44]:

Yeah. I I think that's maybe the one time that it's actually accepted. Right? Because no sales rep wants to to go into an interaction with a customer, and a lot of time in the pharma industry specifically, the healthcare providers know when a new indication is coming out, they know that something's coming from a company and they wanna learn more, whether it's about the mechanism of action of that specific, indication or or how it can be dosed or the appropriate patient. So they they they they want the information, and that's when a sales rep wants to be on their a game. Right? They see an opportunity, they don't wanna be in front of their customer and and not look like the expert. So when when we do have those those new, cycles, new meeting cycles, new material, new brand indication, you do see a a a lot more willingness to role play role play. Where I think that the challenge there even comes in and this is kinda goes back to this core challenge around role playing is, in pharma, the messaging is so prescriptive. Right? You have only so much that you can actually say, because you have to stay on label, you have to stay within this the appropriate compliant message.

Cam Badger [00:24:01]:

Now I think that's okay. I think that that there's ways to be impactful in your sales interaction by with still staying on on message because those brand messages are are highly researched by marketing teams, and evaluated before launched. However, I think there's so many other nuances around sales, that you can add in and weave into your messaging. For example, tonality. How do you use the appropriate tone to make sure that you're you're emphasizing on certain areas of your message. Right? How do you maybe slow down your conversation when you're focusing on a more important piece that you wanna focus on? Or implementing pauses, asking, you know, really good questions. What type of questioning techniques are you asking? How are you challenging the customer to move forward in different areas of of the selling cycle? So I think that there's so many other ways that we can weave in new techniques or different techniques that aren't always taught in pharma, because it's so compliance driven and focused, that can again make the role play experience way more impactful, again, adding more value to the sales rep, making them a better professional, and having them rave about your company's sales training platform, because you're truly upskilling them. Again, when we think about sales, upskilling them to then bring their confidence level up so that when they go and see that customer, they are the most impactful that they can actually be.

Rob Durant [00:25:28]:

Excellent. Kim, this has been great. How can people learn more? Where can they get in touch with you?

Cam Badger [00:25:36]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Here on LinkedIn. Cam Badger on LinkedIn, Praxis Pro, our company page is also on LinkedIn. PraxisPro.ai is our website. We're excited to be launching an AI enabled sales training tool specifically for the pharmaceutical industry that is designed truly for the industry. We meet the sales reps where and when they need to to the sales training the most by using conversational AI to truly develop a dynamic role play experience, in the car as you're going from customer to customer. So, we it's definitely a using the power of role play that we talked about today, creating a comfortable environment that the reps are so used to, which is their car, and creating a vehicle of learning and skill development, from customer to customer.

Cam Badger [00:26:27]:

So, absolutely visit the website. You will see more and more updates, as we continue to launch, going into 2025, here on LinkedIn, but follow the journey there.

Rob Durant [00:26:42]:

Excellent. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get show highlights beyond the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at salestv.live/newsletter. This has been another edition of Sales TV Live. On behalf of the team here at Sales TV, to our guest, Cam, and to our audience, thank you all for being an active part in today's conversation, and we'll see you next time.

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