This week on SalesTV.live we're excited to welcome Joanne Black, the founder of No More Cold Calling and a trailblazer in referral selling. With a career spanning over two decades dedicated to transforming sales through the power of referrals, Joanne brings unparalleled insights into why traditional lead generation methods are falling short and how referrals can become your most powerful sales tool.

In this episode we'll explore:

* The untapped potential of referral selling in today’s uncertain economic landscape.

* Practical steps to build a robust referral pipeline that delivers qualified leads consistently.

* How to create a referral culture within your organization that accelerates sales and drives revenue growth.

* The common pitfalls in referral selling and how to avoid them.

An acclaimed author, Joanne has penned essential reads in the sales field, including "No More Cold Calling" and "Pick Up the Damn Phone!: How People, Not Technology, Seal the Deal," offering sales professionals actionable insights and methodologies to drive their success. Working closely with a broad spectrum of clients, from burgeoning startups to established enterprises, Joanne has demonstrated a unique ability to tailor referral programs that integrate seamlessly into a company's existing sales processes, thereby fostering a culture of referral excellence.

This week's Guest was -

• Joanne Black, the founder of No More Cold Calling and a trailblazer in referral selling.

This week's Panelist was -

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of DLA Ignite

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results and CEO of US Operations at The Institute of Sales Professionals

Transcript of SalesTV.live Mid-Day Edition 2025-01-21

Rob Durant [00:00:01]:

Good morning. Good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of sales TV live. Today, we're leveraging the untapped potential of referrals. We're joined by Joanne Black, an acclaimed author. Joanne has penned essential reads in the sales field, including no more cold calling and my favorite title, pick up the damn phone. How people, not technology seal the deal. Joanne brings unparalleled insights into why traditional lead generation methods are falling short and how referrals can become your most powerful sales tool.

Rob Durant [00:00:44]:

Joanne, welcome.

Joanne Black [00:00:47]:

It's a treat, Rob. I this is my favorite topic.

Rob Durant [00:00:51]:

Fantastic. We're so glad to have you here. Joanne, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Joanne Black [00:01:03]:

I've always been in sales. So my first job out of college was a sales job. And in hindsight, it was a referral. So my uncle knew somebody there and introduced me and that's how it started and that's really where I learned how to sell. That selling was not pushing, it was giving people options, sharing information, and having them make the right decision because I never thought I'd be in sales. I'm Right. Basically an introvert, and I thought, oh, no. I'm not the life of the party.

Joanne Black [00:01:39]:

How can I be in sales? Well, that all changed. And so that's how it started way back then out of college, and I'm not telling you how many years ago that was. You can kinda guess. So, fast forward. I, joined a company that only worked with banks. It was years ago. And I was the 1st non banker they ever hired. And I was with them for 8 years in sales and sales management roles.

Joanne Black [00:02:19]:

And then I went to another company because people thought I only knew banks. Well, I never worked in a bank in my life. And so that other company was like everything. I my territory was the Silicon Valley because, as you know, I live in the San Francisco Bay area. And then I I just I got tired of, I don't know, all this technical term stuff. And my colleagues were saying to me, Joanna, you should start your own company. It was 1996. The economy was great.

Joanne Black [00:02:54]:

So I thought, okay. Why not? But it had nothing to do with referrals at the time. I thought what I wanted to do was work with companies, smaller companies, to build a sales plan within their business plan because back then you couldn't find a sales plan with a magnifying glass now serendipitously my first client was doing a customer satisfaction survey of 50 of their best clients and it was several rounds and I added this question on the last round. Would you be willing to be a referral to this company? Well, it was a 7 point scale. 7 was high My question came back 6 point 5.

Rob Durant [00:03:37]:

Wow.

Joanne Black [00:03:37]:

So that really was like an for me. Yeah. I always knew referrals were the best business, but I had to check it out and I went back to the management team and I said, 50 of your clients are saying they'd be glad to refer you. Are you asking? The answer was no. Not surprising, but it's also no in 2025 or when anybody is listening to this because people aren't asking, and there's lots of reasons for it. So pretty logical person. So I decided I'm going to talk to sales people sales execs I knew and ask them so I asked them do they love to get referrals. Of course, they gave me this long list and then I ask this question.

Joanne Black [00:04:28]:

Do you have a referral system of methodology with a strategy, with metrics, with skills, and with accountability for results? Well, again, the answer was no then and it's no today. And so I identified this huge gap that referrals are really happenstance and nobody had a system. So I created that, and and that is almost 29 years ago. And you know what? The answer's still the same, and the system is working better than ever.

Adam Gray [00:05:07]:

So, like most people in business or sales, I have been referred to people at some point. So, assuming that somebody out there is competent at what they do and they, they deliver or exceed the expectations that that they've been set, what would that be their first steps in actually asking people for a referral? I know, you know, you don't ask, you don't get. But but what is a simple way to get people into this kind of mindset of doing that?

Joanne Black [00:05:45]:

That's a tough question to answer, Adam, but I I'm going to go back to the first thing you said, which is you've gotten referrals. I wanna make the distinction. There's a difference between what I call inbound referrals. So, you know, somebody contacts you and say so and so suggests that I talk to you versus outbound referrals where we proactively ask. And we have a system. We have metrics for referrals that's not happening and that's the huge gap in referral selling. It's all inbound for the most part and if it's outbound, it's kinda hit and miss so to your point. There's a lot that gets in the way of asking.

Joanne Black [00:06:30]:

And I don't know if this is to your point or not, but what I've learned over the years is that we're all human beings and referral selling is the most personal kind of selling we can do. After all, we put our reputation on the line, and we think, oh my gosh. What if they say no? Or I feel like the used car salesman, or it feels desperate, or it feels pushy. It feels arrogant. And all this comes in the 4. And it's a perception, and the perceptions are real. And why not? It's kinda weird. What if they say no? Or the desperate thing is the thinking is if I were really successful, well, I wouldn't have to ask.

Joanne Black [00:07:17]:

We know that's not true because good salespeople don't sit back and wait. So we need to flip the script and be proactive in asking. Now would you ask me your question again, Adam?

Adam Gray [00:07:33]:

No. I think I think that's nailed it because, you know, when we are teaching people how to use social media, one of the things we say to them is you should ask people for recommendations because, you know, somebody else saying nice things about you is a really positive thing, and this is a if not a 1000000 miles away from that. And the often people feel really uncomfortable with doing that. But when you say to somebody, if a plumber comes to your house to fix a a leaky sink, and they do a really good job, and they say at the end, were you happy with the job? Yep. Delighted with it. Would you mind writing a testimonial for me? Everyone says, of course, I will. Exactly the same thing, isn't it? You know, you you you you tee it up and you say, are you happy with what I've done for you? Yes. Do you know anyone else that could benefit from this? And if they say, no.

Adam Gray [00:08:21]:

I'm not happy with this. Okay. Well, how can I make it better? How can I put that problem right? So everything's an opportunity if you have a positive mindset, isn't it?

Joanne Black [00:08:32]:

I agree. It is an opportunity, and I want to address the language because you asked me that a few minutes ago, that the way to ask is not, do you know anybody you could refer me to? Now this is this is two reasons why no. First of all, you've asked the question where they can say no. You know, sometimes we do want a no answer, but in this case, we don't. So that's that's really one reason. The other is, do you know anybody? Well, I don't know a person named anybody. You see, when we ask for a referral, we have the opportunity to ask for exactly what we want. So if you want to meet the head of sales, if you want to meet whoever it is, you're going to name that role and give examples of the work you've done in that space.

Joanne Black [00:09:35]:

You see, we need to educate our referral sources on how to introduce us, and a referral means an introduction. Period. End of story. And there's a difference between a referral, a recommendation, and a reference. So a referral means you get the introduction. That's it. Does that help?

Adam Gray [00:10:02]:

Oh, that's fantastic. And and the way when you describe it like that, it seems so obvious. And that's that's the beauty of it, isn't it? All the all the best ideas are.

Joanne Black [00:10:16]:

Yes, and you know it is obvious, but it's we face this fear. It really is a fear of asking and I know I had that initially as well when I work for the 2nd consulting firm, I remember I had II was asking and wasn't a system then and I just got oh, I got so like in here, you know anxious, because here's what people say and I don't want anybody to use this term. They'll say I'd I'd like you to do me a favor. It's not a favor because favor means you do something for me. I do something for you. It's not a favor. You're asking for their help. And that's a great phrase to use.

Joanne Black [00:11:13]:

But you need to be clear about what you're looking for because people want to make a good introduction. I mean, that's been my experience for all these years because, Adam, if I'm introducing you, I need to know you're a credible resource that will take care of my connection as I would. So my reputation is on the line as well, And people really want to help and make a good introduction. And if if you find 1 or 2 that don't, okay, they're not your people. Well, maybe they are, but they're not my people.

Rob Durant [00:11:52]:

Joanne, you mentioned intentionality and, methodology behind it. What are the steps involved needed to build a robust referral pipeline?

Joanne Black [00:12:06]:

Love that question. I mean, it's like anything else we do. Think of it this way. Whenever you start on any initiative, you have a strategy. Has to be. So the strategy is, you know, what do we want from this? What do I want in the end? What's going to happen? What what are the metrics I need? All of that before we ever do anything else. And for me, a strategy can be 3 sentences or even 1. It doesn't matter.

Joanne Black [00:12:38]:

But I need to know that because in the work we do together, we're gonna go toward that goal. Every single step will get us to that goal. And if it's not realistic, I'll let them know because I'm pretty straightforward. So as I say well, most people know me. They know I'm a nice person, but they also know I'm no bullshit. So if we're working together on a referral system, we're working together and that's how it goes and there's accountability on both ends. So the first strategy, again, it could be 3 sentences. One sentence doesn't matter what's the outcome you want.

Joanne Black [00:13:22]:

Second, what are the metrics? And there's different kinds of metrics. Right? There's accountability metrics for, revenue, which in in business is typically the key. But there's also accountability metrics for activities such as how many people I'm going to ask this week. It's pretty obvious, but if you don't ask, you don't get. So that's the first metric, period. And then after that, how many referral meetings did I schedule? How many did I conduct? What was the outcome? And it could be the outcome. Maybe this person wasn't a fit, but they're gonna refer you to somebody else in their organization or somebody else they know. Maybe they are a fit, and you schedule the next meeting.

Joanne Black [00:14:20]:

So you're gonna track all of this. Once the meeting is scheduled, that's a metric conducted as a metric. And then whatever the outcome is for that, we hope it's a referral or they're doing business with us. And so that's the kind of metrics we need to to set, not only for our team but for each individual. And each individual needs to have the referral goals in their KPIs when we're talking a company. If you're an individual business owner, you're still going to need those metrics, but they will vary for you. Then the next is referral selling is a skill. You know, we don't always think about that, and people think, oh, I just have to go ask for a referral.

Joanne Black [00:15:16]:

Well, maybe they've got lucky, but lucky doesn't well, it's not sustainable, but a system is because everything goes and falls to a system. And any skill needs to be reinforced and coached. But the most important is the accountability. Right? So without that, nothing happens. Absolutely nothing. And then the execution. So a client years ago said to me, Joanne, the challenge is always in the execution. And I've seen it because you just don't want something that, oh, yeah.

Joanne Black [00:15:59]:

We're gonna do this now. And then 3 months later, 6 months later, it's forgotten. This is a strategic initiative.

Adam Gray [00:16:09]:

So here's an interesting question for you. Clearly, you believe in referrals as being the right and I use the word right in the business sense, the right strategy. So is the idea that this replaces everything else? Because, clearly, if I've got 5 customers and each of those 5 customers reintroduced me to 10 people, 10% of which I convert into clients, I've then got 5 more customers who introduced me to 10 people. 10% of those are so this actually could replace all of my outbound sales and marketing activity, couldn't it, if I do it right?

Joanne Black [00:16:55]:

I I don't believe it replaces things like that. It's, on top of it. So let me explain. If every company has outbound marketing, we have of course, we need to do that. I mean, that's that's our blueprint, really, and that's what people look for. You need to build that credibility, and and many times, you do that through outbound marketing. And, of course, social media, Adam, which is, you know, so essential today and LinkedIn specifically. You know, LinkedIn used to have this button you could click and ask somebody to refer you.

Joanne Black [00:17:42]:

And I tell you I was so glad when they removed that because you can't you don't know the relationship people have on LinkedIn. You know that Adam right, we all know that did they just click a button or do people really have a relationship, and we have to find that out first? But people are glad to help when you have that relationship. So the answer is no. You don't eliminate everything else. It really boosts your credibility and your network.

Rob Durant [00:18:19]:

Interesting. How do you address any hesitations from clients who might be reluctant to make referrals? Not specifically refer me, but I I don't do referrals in general.

Joanne Black [00:18:35]:

Well, short answer, then they're not my client. So and here's why. You know, it I'd have to dig a little bit, of course. But if you find they're reticent and they don't wanna have the strategy and the metrics, oh, I can't hold people accountable, all of that, You know? We're just not gonna start. There's no play there.

Rob Durant [00:18:59]:

I I mean, more along the lines of a client that you are working with, and they encounter a client who, is hesitant, reluctant to make a referral. How would you coach them through that process?

Joanne Black [00:19:12]:

Well, a big part of it is how they ask. Now if they have the relationship first of all, I've never had anybody say no in 20 almost 29 years to me or my clients. But you have to ask the right way as well, and you have to be sure you have that relationship. I mean, for many of us, yes, we have a business relationship with our clients, but we also know a lot about them otherwise. I mean, I'm friends. You know? I know about their families. I mean, all this kind of thing because I ask. I wanna know the full picture of these people.

Joanne Black [00:19:50]:

And and so I haven't had that happen. But it's asking the right way. And I'm gonna give you some language for everybody listening. Remember, it's not do you know anyone? Because okay. You haven't given me the picture. I have no clue what you're talking about. It's who are 1 or 2 people you know and you've already had the conversation. You could say someone just like you.

Joanne Black [00:20:24]:

Who? And then you wanna start go back to what was the issue, the reason they came to you because that's what you're looking for. You want to find a prospect who has that or a similar issue because then they will need you.

Rob Durant [00:20:45]:

And how does a salesperson identify the best opportunities for asking for referrals without coming across too pushy?

Joanne Black [00:20:58]:

Well, if you have the relationship, it's not pushy. And, again, I said that people are glad to help. I mean, if you look at clients, right, they are busy. They don't always know what we want or what we need, but they're glad to help. And sometimes we think if we had a great client, well, why haven't they referred me? But that's not accurate. They haven't referred you because, first of all, they don't know who you're looking for. They don't know you need more business, which is really ironic because who doesn't? You know, it can get crazy busy, but we figure it out. And and so they're just not thinking of us day to day.

Joanne Black [00:21:45]:

We need to bring to the fore the problem they had initially. And then what happened as a result of working together, what's the outcome? People pay attention to that.

Rob Durant [00:22:05]:

So if you were to emphasize the one thing you would want our audience to take away from today's episode, what would that one thing be?

Joanne Black [00:22:18]:

How to ask because it's the first thing if you don't ask you don't get right so remember who are 1 or 2 people you know And then you're gonna tell them specifically who you're looking for. Again, people want to connect you with the right person because if there are reputations on the line as well, you get what you ask for. So ask for exactly what you want.

Rob Durant [00:22:47]:

Love that. That's great. Joanne, this has been great. How can people learn more? Where can they get in touch with you?

Joanne Black [00:22:55]:

Well, certainly on LinkedIn. And here's the thing, you build a relationship there first. So you need to invite me and say you've listened to this episode because then I know. If you just click a button, I'm probably not going to accept. I'm gonna ignore. We start building relationships there. So that's one way. The other is send me an email, joanne, j o a n n e, at no more cold calling dot com, or go to my website, no more cold calling dot com.

Joanne Black [00:23:28]:

And here's something you can do from my home page. There's a referral IQ quiz. It's 14 yes, no questions. Takes less than 3 minutes because after all, it's yes or no. You do it or you don't. So take the quiz and you'll see how you do because that's the baseline for referral selling.

Rob Durant [00:23:51]:

Fantastic. Brilliant. And now we're going to practice a little bit of what we just learned. If you liked what you heard today, please take a moment to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. Let us know what you learned and what you'd like to learn more about. Your feedback helps us reach more people like you and fulfill our mission of elevating the profession of sales. This has been another edition of sales TV live. On behalf of everyone at sales TV, to our guest, Joanne, and to our audience, Thank you all for being an active part in today's conversation and we'll see you next time.

Joanne Black [00:24:32]:

Bye.

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