Stop Selling. Start Collaborating.

Sales isn’t just about revenue - it’s about creating value that lasts. In today’s sales environment, closing deals isn’t the finish line. Closing a deal is the starting point for creating real business value. The most successful sales teams are the ones that collaborate across departments and with customers to uncover hidden value long after the signature hits the page.

In this episode of SalesTV we’ll discuss –

* How you help your customer become the hero.

* The hidden value your sales team creates that no one measures.

* Where collaboration breaks down between sales and the rest of the business.

* Shifting from chasing revenue to creating value.

Ed Arnold is a leading expert in value-based selling and customer value management. Through his company The Valorizer, he now coaches small and midsize teams to sell with confidence, financial fluency, and purpose.

Join us live and be part of the conversation.

This week's Guest was -

• Ed Arnold, a leading expert in value-based selling and customer value management and Founder at The Valorizer

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, CEO of US Operations at The Institute of Sales Professionals

Transcript of SalesTV.live Mid-Day Edition 2025-10-14

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of Sales TV Live. Today we're going to explore why you need to stop selling and start collaborating. We're joined by Ed Arnold as co founder of LeveragePoint, the first software platform dedicated to quantifying customer value. Ed has spent over 15 years helping B2B teams improve sales velocity and win rates by focusing on what customers truly value. Through his company, the Valorizer, he now coaches small and mid sized teams to sell with confidence, financial fluency and purpose. Ed, welcome.

Ed Arnold [00:00:50]:

Hey, thanks for inviting me, Rob.

Rob Durant [00:00:53]:

Absolutely. Glad to have you here. Ed, when we talked previously, you said to me you're trying to make your key customer contact the hero of their world, right? But how do you help your customer become the hero?

Ed Arnold [00:01:09]:

Well, the first thing I'll point out is that a common rookie mistake in, in sales is when you focus too much time on your product and not enough time on the customer. You know, and I learned this myself when I was at Leverage Point and partly was responsible for selling the software we created. And at the time I naively thought that if I just did my spectacular demo, people would love it and then they would buy it. Now admittedly, sometimes they like the demo, okay. They didn't often buy, right? And the reason for that was because I was telling a, a story in which my product was the hero, right? Leverage Point was the hero to solve all their, all their problems. And although that's a great story, it's not very interesting to customers. Customers don't want to hear that story nor do they want to hear, you know, know the legacy of the 50 years you've been in business and yada, yada, yada. It, it's, it's just noise to them.

Ed Arnold [00:02:21]:

What they really want to hear is a story where they become successful, right? They are the hero of, you know, of, of their company who overcame a challenge. They love hearing that story. And what I found is that when you start working along those lines, they'll help you write that, that story, right? That's where, that's where that came from. And you know, this, this I, you know, I discovered, but I also learned later that this is a common sales technique and it, it comes from the work of Joseph Campbell. I don't know if you, if you have heard that name before, but he wrote a book called the Hero's Journey. I figure you, you would because you worked at Disney. But what it's about is basically, you know, it was an academic study about legends and stories. You Know, going back to antiquity, right.

Ed Arnold [00:03:19]:

But Hollywood picked up on that and that became the manual for script development, how you tell a narrative, right. An interesting story. And so just about any blockbuster movie, whether it's like the wizard of Oz or Star wars, you know, follows this. So getting back to, you know, my leverage point experience, I was trying to be Luke Skywalker with my product, but where I should have been is a different role. I should have been the Obi Wan Kenobi, right? So Campbell calls that the mentor. Right. Role. And that role is really important, especially in the early stages of that journey that the hero goes through.

Ed Arnold [00:04:07]:

They go through trials and, you know, all sorts of things, and then they come out at the end transformed as the hero. But there, that's a really, really important role. So that's what it, that's what great sales people do. They act as mentors for their customers throughout their hero's journey, which corresponds to the buying journey. That's what I meant by making the customer the hero of their story.

Rob Durant [00:04:40]:

Okay, so how do I help my customer become the hero in their story? Do they even see themselves in the story?

Ed Arnold [00:04:50]:

Well, as I said, you don't start with a demo or a pitch deck, right? You have those initial exploratory or what are known as discovery discussions with the customer. And any sales process has that phase in it, right? And you know, the, the, the role of that is to, you know, uncover what the needs, what the challenges are, what the goals for that particular customers. What I'm proposing to add here to make it into a hero story is adding what I call value discovery because, you know, I'm a value based pricing consultant, right? And so what the salesperson needs to do is to connect the dots between what the customer is, is doing, listening carefully, and what, how they could help them. Like, we've run into this problem before with other customers and we were able to solve that. And I can tell you like a quick story about, like, how this can kind of work. So there's, there was a SAS company that sold a solution to medical practices that managed patient appointments. It was a patient management system. And one of their differentiators was that they, they automated a lot of the appointments and reschedulings and things like that.

Ed Arnold [00:06:33]:

When their salespeople, you know, engage that process, they would not talk to the doctors, typically, they would talk to the office manager, the administrator, you know, the person that you see behind the counter when you come in there. And you know, what's that person's life like? What's chaos, right? It's crazy. You know, phones ringing constantly, hold them in it, hold them in it. They're running around with their hair on fire. And so when they were engaging with these folks to hear about what their issues are. Well, a lot of. One of the issues that comes up a lot are no shows or canceled appointments at the last minute for whatever reason. Right.

Ed Arnold [00:07:14]:

You know how hard it is to get a doctor's appointment and how little time doctors have. So especially for larger practices, that, that, that's lost revenue, right? That's lost revenue. Okay. Not only that, but the office administrator also is working really hard, especially if it's, if they haven't invested in this sort of system before where they're doing a lot of manual processing, calling people, you know, etc, Etc. I have a dentist that I go to, they still call me like the day before the appointment. Are you showing up, that sort of thing. So what the sales people is they listen to those challenges and they started offering. Well, you know, if this was, a lot of this was automated, you wouldn't have to be able to do this and then you won't have cancellations, etc.

Ed Arnold [00:08:07]:

Now obviously that's a great value to them, right? But what, what makes them the hero is that they have to in turn get approval from the medical practice owners who are the doctors 20 invest in such a system. And how do you become the hero? Well, you, you show them how much more money they're going to make. Right? We don't have to hire that extra person to make phone calls. Hey, look, you know, you know, we lose X number of on average, you know, 20, 30 appointments cancel or have to be rescheduled a month, which is not unusual for a medical practice. And this is, this is the lost revenue and stuff. What's really interesting about this, Rob, is that when you take the time to connect the dots between the need and what your differentiator is, the quantification of what that is, and that's value. Right? Value means what I get when I use your service, right? Or your, or your product in the b. And I'm here, I'm talking in the B2B context.

Ed Arnold [00:09:26]:

It's easy to quantify these things once you have that sort of discussion, right? You could say that you could come up with a quick calculation that, hey, you know what? We're losing a quarter million dollars of revenue a year because of cancellations. I mean, once that appointment is, it was like, you know, years ago. I worked for a parking company. It know when that SP spot is not filled, that Revenue is lost forever. Same thing with appointments, right? Or like an airline seat, if it's not filled, you're not making money. And so that, that is a business case. So the tangible pay payback makes that person then the hero and they get something out of it. Not only is, are, are, are there, is there, you know, status rise in the organization as a business partner, but their life becomes a lot more simpler.

Ed Arnold [00:10:18]:

And so this in essence, is what good value selling is about.

Rob Durant [00:10:24]:

Absolutely. So I heard you say make the business case. And I can see where the salespeople going in and speaking with the office manager would make the business case, if you would, for reducing their stress around all of those calls. But while that does help them, they actually report to somebody else and it's that somebody else in their eyes that they want to appear the hero. That's when the ROI conversation, the recouping lost revenue becomes more relevant.

Ed Arnold [00:11:06]:

It, it does, but it also, you know, it's an interesting thing we have, having done this a lot of times, there's this productivity. A lot of automation has a, what we call a productivity value. In other words, how many hours a week do you have to spend calling people back for appointments, rescheduling? Well, I do that 10 hours a week on average. Okay. And you say, okay, well, you know, how much is, you know, what, what's the late library? Well, say it's $50, right. So our 5,000, you know, week. You're paying for that, right? Or no, it's 500. Sorry there.

Ed Arnold [00:11:44]:

But, but you know, they'll say, well, well, if you're saving all that time, we're going to have to fire Sally. No, no, you're just, you're reducing stupid work. Right. There's much higher value things that Sally could be doing, right? Improving communications with patients, having more, spending more time with patients to help them, that sort of, that sort of thing. So productivity measures are, are real and have great impact. Not only that, but if you have people that are overworked and you know, a lot of companies are now in layoff modes right now because of AI, Right? So you're selling to say, you know, you're selling to companies that's automating everything. We don't, we're not going to buy anything now because it's all going to be AI. Well, the, the, the employees that are remaining are completely stressed out because they got too much work to do.

Ed Arnold [00:12:52]:

So what happens when you have a stressed out employee? Well, there are other costs that happen. There's attrition. I mean, Attrition in some companies is atrocious. Right?

Rob Durant [00:13:03]:

Yeah.

Ed Arnold [00:13:04]:

So what does it cost to, you know, lose somebody, bring somebody else in, get them, you know, trained to competency so they could perform. Right. You know, these are the things. So that's what a value conversation basically does, is it surfaces, you know, not only the direct costs, but also the risks and, and the things. And people sort of feel this, you know, in their guts and their, and they, they call it like intangible value or thing, which is, which is a word I, I really despise. There's no such thing as intangible value. Value is, can be quantified. It's just that people don't bother to measure it.

Ed Arnold [00:13:50]:

They don't talk about, you know, the value of an employee. Yes. The value of the employee is the cost of replacing that employee when they get burnt out. That's a cost that I can, I can estimate that for you and I've estimated that for, for, for many companies and any salesperson can do that as well. So what I'm getting at, Rob, on this is that, you know, you know, becoming a hero, you know, if, if you are the main point of contact in a sales buying process or a customer purchasing process, you need to be able to make the business case to buy something that, you know, you need to have. Right. And what's interesting is that a lot of times, you know, deals are lost not because of a competitor who's come in at a lower price. Most deals are lost to what's called no decision.

Ed Arnold [00:14:52]:

Right, Right. So what's going on there now? This is, this is a, this could be a situation where, you know, they, you, they've been qualified. Right. That, you know, you've done the band. Right. The budget. Right. And brain freeze.

Ed Arnold [00:15:14]:

What's a budget authority need and timing. Right. You have that and then nothing happens. Right, Right. The reason for that is usually confidence. There isn't confidence in taking it on right now. And that's a big, that is really what's facing a lot of companies in this AI environment right now. We AI plus what's going on in terms of the, you know, the, the international trading situation.

Ed Arnold [00:15:48]:

I think everyone knows what I'm talking about here has really made a lot of companies very, very conservative in how they're spending money. Right. So if you're going to be making, especially if you're selling a complex solution, you need to have a pretty solid business case, otherwise it's going to be, yeah, well, we're not going to do that this year. We're going to delay it. And when I was in sales at leverage point, you know, someone's, I would have, I would talk with someone, they'd say, well, you know, what happened with the sales call? Well, the customer decided not to buy it. And they say, oh, that's, that's, that's the worst answer to get. And I say, no, that isn't. No is a good answer.

Ed Arnold [00:16:35]:

It means I'm not going to spend any more time with that prospect anymore. The worst answer is maybe, right? Maybe means that, you know, I mean, your, your, your customer acquisition costs go up, right? Your, your sales velocity gets very, very long, right? You're turning over a pipeline that's basically worthless. It's, it's, it's kind of hopeless, right? So that's, you know, that's where I think the business case comes into play. Because one, it helps you qualify those issues much, much sooner, right? You know, which clients can, customers can really gain the most from your solution. And it, you know, sometimes, hey, look, I, I've done many, many a study or a selling consult where, look, you're not really producing any value, not much value. So don't worry about that one, right? Focus on the ones that really, you know, that really get the most value. Because I think one of the things that happens right now that there is one form of value that's easiest to give away but is the most expensive in reality, right? That value is called the discount. Right? Now, we may not think of it as value.

Ed Arnold [00:18:06]:

And as a pricing consultant, a value pricing consultant, you know, I would get slapped in the face by other consultants if I said that. But from the customer's perspective, right, A discount is a form of value. It means I got a great deal, right? I mean, you know, I'm, I'm sort of cheap. When I go shopping, if I see a good deal, I'm gonna buy it, right? And I will say I got good value out of that because I was never gonna buy that at full price. Oh, it went down to half price. Now I'm gonna buy it. That's a discount. That differentiation, that marketing, that product development that the whole company spent on building immediately got eroded because it went on sale, right? And you know, that happens a lot in, in the B2C world because that's just the nature of the volumes and whatnot.

Ed Arnold [00:19:03]:

But if you're in a B2B world and you're selling, you know, more complex systems and things like that, especially if they're high, you know, annual contract values, you know, you're really giving away a lot to do that. I mean, when you think about where value came out of this value pricing, it came out of companies that were supplying large OEMs. And you know, large OEMs always had procurement departments that were brutal when it came to negotiating on price. But there's no way you can invest in your, you know, this. I worked a lot with chemical companies early when I was doing this value thing. There was no way they could stay in business and invest in research and development and all the, you know, all the fixed costs there is to be in the chemical business a very complex and, and dangerous business. So you have to spend a lot of money to come up with, you know, new products. There was no way you, they could have stayed in business if they were constantly getting, you know, beat up on pricing and had to give discounts.

Ed Arnold [00:20:14]:

So that's, that's where the value came into play. In fact, they were so good at it that when they would negotiate with OEMs, they say, here's a product we're going to make. Depending on what price you pay us. We're not going to make it, you.

Rob Durant [00:20:27]:

Know, all right, because we got better.

Ed Arnold [00:20:32]:

We got better things to do.

Rob Durant [00:20:34]:

Yeah.

Ed Arnold [00:20:34]:

And if you really want it, we'll sell it to you. And you know, if you really want it, you know, you can have exclusive but for the first year, but you're gonna have to buy it at this price and then you know, yada, yada, yada. So that's a very clever, that's a clever way of thinking about value that, you know, understanding how much value you really create for your customer, that's, that's the most important thing here.

Rob Durant [00:21:00]:

Excellent. So, Ed, what does it take to sell with your customer instead of selling to your, your customer?

Ed Arnold [00:21:09]:

Well, as I said, you know, if you tell a story that the customer is interested in, then they're with you. Right. Because they're the hero. They're the hero of the story and they're the co author of the story. Right. So I think that's first and foremost that, you know, it's, it has to be about, it has to be about what the customer is doing with it. And that requires you to really understand what the customer is really doing with it. And this is where I think, you know, I mean, I, I wore many hats in my career as both, you know, a consultant, as a product manager.

Ed Arnold [00:21:55]:

And you know, product managers sometimes really don't know how their customers are using their product and what, what value they're really getting. So you really need to, you really need to understand that deeply. When I was at Forrester, you know, I did voice of the customer research to try to understand really what the value of. And one of the things about value is that you can have two identical customers who are using, have different use cases and they get different value out of that. So I think to get the customer to go along with you, you really need to understand how they're using that product. Because you only get value by using something. You don't get value by buying something. Right.

Ed Arnold [00:22:42]:

If you buy an exercise bike and you never get on it, you've gotten zero value out of it.

Rob Durant [00:22:49]:

I feel seen.

Ed Arnold [00:22:51]:

Right. And, and I think as far as procurement departments go, they could care less if it's being used or not. They got it the absolute lowest price. Nobody else has gotten a better price than us. My job is done. Right? Right. But you know, this idea that, you know, the value is okay, this is for the entire company. Now there, there's a selfish reason why you, the customer wants to go along with that.

Ed Arnold [00:23:16]:

Because, you know, in the B2B world, a lot of this stuff is a business case. You know the economics of it. There is a personal aspect of it that salespeople play to. Number one is they don't want to make a mistake. They don't want to get to buy something that doesn't work out. They don't want to be blamed. All right, so that's that risk averse behavior, which is why you have no decisions, right? Because I don't think I'm going to stick my neck out for this. Right.

Ed Arnold [00:23:50]:

But the flip side of that is if I am, and I, and I, some of my best customers at leverage point were those, you know, early adopter type of customers who were rising up through the ranks and wanted to get things done. Right. They wanted, they wanted, they wanted wins. And so when they saw that I could help them get more wins in terms of their growth and their profitability and their discounting and stuff like that, then they're willing to take, they're willing to take that risk and go along with it. So you have to exploit, you know, both the, the emotional side of it. In the B2B world, which I think is about 20 of the calculation, but the large majority is that you have to have a solid business case, not a flaky one. Not the ones that you see. If you go Google search on ROI, you get, you know, 10,000%, you know, blah, blah, blah, sorts of things.

Ed Arnold [00:24:55]:

You know, Forrester wrote those sorts of white papers all the time, right? Those don't close sales. Those types of white papers, etc are, are used to initiate interests. And they're again, they're all, they're hero stories about products. They're not hero stories about the customer. So to be effective, especially in Clos, you need to have that hero story about the customer, which means it's a custom story, that they're the star of the show and they, you know, they wrote, they wrote their hero part in it, right? That gives them the confidence to go to their executive team or you know, their approval board to get that because now they believe it. You've got, you know, it's not, it's not enough to make a solid business case. You gotta, you gotta give confidence to your customer to make the strong business case that they really believe in it. So those numbers now are not those fudgy ROI numbers that I got from the Internet.

Ed Arnold [00:26:03]:

This is what I believe we will get if we invest in this, in the solution.

Rob Durant [00:26:09]:

Makes sense. Ed, if you were to emphasize the one thing you would want our audience to take away from today's episode, what would that one thing be?

Ed Arnold [00:26:22]:

I would say again, you really need to understand the value you create for customers and realize that value comes from use and value is different from customer to customer. And that value is sometimes intangible. But, but what I really mean is that it's not obvious, right? So you really need to know your value. Once you know your value, then the selling process and the negotiation process, the price negotiation risk drops down. I mean, and this I've seen it happens. You focus on value at the very, very beginning in those initial conversations and you stay with it. So know your customers value.

Rob Durant [00:27:14]:

Excellent. Ed, this has been great. On behalf of everyone here at Sales TV Live, to you and to our audience, I want to thank you for being an active part in today's conversation. If you liked what you heard today, please take a moment to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Substack or YouTube. Let us know what you learned and what you'd like to learn more about. Your feedback helps us reach more people like you and fulfill our mission of elevating the profession of sales. Thank you all and we'll see you next time.

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