From Seller to Sales Leader – What No One Tells You

You crushed your number. You earned the title.

But stepping into sales leadership is more than a new job—it’s a whole new game.

In this episode of SalesTV, I’m joined by Volker Ballueder to unpack the truth about becoming a first-time sales leader:

- The shock of leading people, not just performance

- The conversations that keep you up at night

- The shift in identity no one prepares you for

Whether you're already in the role or just thinking about it, this one's for you.

Let’s talk about the real first 12 months of sales leadership.

This week's Guest was -

• Jon Bratton, Senior Director of Sales at unitQ

This week's Host was -

• Alex Abbott, Founder of Supero

Transcript of SalesTV.live Special Edition 2025-04-16

Alex Abbott [00:00:00]:

Oh, and welcome to Sales TV, where we break down the moments that matter in modern sales and leave you, our audience, with at least one thing that will improve your performance. So today's episode is all about the critical step up from seller to sales leader. What changes? What catches you off guard? And how do you lead when it's no longer just about your number for your people? So before we dive in, let's take a minute to introduce ourselves properly, and why this conversation, of course, matters to the both of us. Would you like to go first, Volker, or

Volker Ballueder [00:00:43]:

should you? I thought you introduced me, but no. No. You go you were first. You know, you as a host. Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:00:50]:

So so a little bit about me. So I I first, entered the world world of sales back in 1993 when I was selling Kirby vacuum cleaners. About seven years, doing a bunch of different sales roles, selling to kinda, you know, consumers, mister and missus in their homes back then from Kirby to Double Glazing. But I finally broke into business to business sales around the year February. In fact, it was May 2000. And I really thought I'd made it. But six years six years later, I'd finally kind of figured out what I needed to do in order to be successful consistently. That switch finally went in my mind, and I realized, you know, I I I needed to care more about the value that I was delivering rather than, you know, whether or not my customers liked me.

Alex Abbott [00:01:51]:

Anyway, fast forward to today, twenty five years in b two b sales, twelve or so years in leadership, and now I've developed a methodology that helps both salespeople and sales leaders develop conversations at scale with their target audience, a social led, approach. But anyway, enough about me. Volker, let's hear from you.

Volker Ballueder [00:02:19]:

Yeah. I I was just thinking, how long have I been in sales if I can top it, but I can't. So you you clearly must be older than me. So it's quite ages maybe? Sorry?

Alex Abbott [00:02:32]:

We'll see. We've got to be similar ages. No?

Volker Ballueder [00:02:34]:

I don't know. I'm 48. I'm happy to talk about that.

Alex Abbott [00:02:37]:

Okay. Okay. Well, I'm 51.

Volker Ballueder [00:02:39]:

Yeah. So so you probably have about three years more experience than me. I mean, in Germany, you go to university much longer and if you're like me, you go to German university first and then come to The UK to finish your degree. But that's maybe for different episodes. So I started in sales actually, so I was just thinking about that. Probably in in 1999 when I dropped out of Germany University, funny enough, I did an internship with HP in sales and really really enjoyed it. But then I went back to uni and properly entered sales in 02/2004 in a telemarketing role. So two hours call time, hundred calls a day, that was my target.

Volker Ballueder [00:03:19]:

Smashed them. I don't shit loads of money in my first year, you know. I I always say that not to brag. Right? But I I was on 18 k base or 17 k even at the day at the time. My OT was 26, but I earned over $40 in my first year. So clearly, I was doing well, which was great. So so I enjoyed sales. And like most people I never really wanted to go into sales, right? It wasn't like I went to uni and I'm like, oh, when I finish I'm gonna go into sales.

Volker Ballueder [00:03:47]:

So I just fell into it. So yeah. So I moved to the ranks, B2B sales, advertising technology a lot. So tech sales, SaaS sales, lead teams, all the way up to COO roles. And if I say retired, I didn't quite retire but I went self employed in 02/2019. Not to retire but to focus more on sales leadership development. So I'm now working as a sales leadership coach, executive coach, mentor, and, work as a as a fractional consultant. So working with start scale ups to help them with their go to market strategies and and what they're doing.

Volker Ballueder [00:04:27]:

What's your secret? Sorry. We just got a message there. Thank you, Ayesha. I much appreciate that. Don't you don't have to say that I'm looking younger than than Alex, but

Alex Abbott [00:04:38]:

I'm sure she was talking about me.

Volker Ballueder [00:04:40]:

She must have. On the first name of background. Right? So yeah. So so so I'm now working working self employed and to enjoy that much more help helping others, supporting others. That's really where, you know, my my strengths and and my passion lies as well.

Alex Abbott [00:04:57]:

Nice. And and we we met it feels like we met maybe three or four years ago?

Volker Ballueder [00:05:03]:

Yeah. It was just during lockdown. So, I mean, we we can go by by dog years because Annie is three years now. So it must have been three to four years ago. So for for everyone wondering who Annie is, Annie is my little miniature sausage dog. But I only have one, but you have that's all.

Alex Abbott [00:05:21]:

I have six. Yeah. That's right. We we were talking tattoos and sausage dogs Yeah. If I recall.

Volker Ballueder [00:05:30]:

That's right.

Alex Abbott [00:05:31]:

I think you'd had recently had a tattoo or you were considering a new tattoo. We Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:05:37]:

Tell me about sausage. The truths. You you can't see any. You you can see the ring here. Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:05:44]:

There we go.

Volker Ballueder [00:05:44]:

So in in 2020, I I could take my shirt off now. In 2020, I

Alex Abbott [00:05:51]:

a different show, Volker.

Volker Ballueder [00:05:53]:

I know. It's a Chippendale sales show. Yeah. Yeah. If I Yeah. In 2020, I got my first tattoo, so I never had a tattoo until lockdown hit. So it was literally the first week of lockdown when I went, like, I always wanted to get a tattoo, and I wanna get a tattoo that says fall down seven times, get up eight, which is a Japanese proverb.

Alex Abbott [00:06:17]:

Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:06:17]:

And lo and behold in June 2020, I think it was, I got my first tattoo on on my lower arm and, I then, yeah. FSA, the rest is history. I got got got got a mandala here and then I'm covered now, basically. So and within five years, I'm completely covered and I run out of space now and I don't know what else to do with it. So Yeah. And I don't wanna do my neck yet. So may maybe that's next. But Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:06:45]:

I I do love that. So your your first tattoo was, fall down seven times, get up eight times.

Volker Ballueder [00:06:52]:

Yeah. Yeah. Like never giving up.

Alex Abbott [00:06:54]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I Didn't have that tattoo, but it's funny. I I had a tattoo when I was 17.

Volker Ballueder [00:07:03]:

Yeah

Alex Abbott [00:07:04]:

one and it hurts so much. I told myself whatever you do, never forget this pain. Never ever, ever, ever, ever have another tattoo. Anyway

Volker Ballueder [00:07:17]:

There was your blood tattoo that it hurts so much. Yeah. Can you see?

Alex Abbott [00:07:22]:

It was on my back. I just can't stand can't stand, my back. And so when I was 40, then I had my first sleeve.

Volker Ballueder [00:07:31]:

Yeah. And,

Alex Abbott [00:07:32]:

a little bit like you, there's a there's a store there's a story behind the tattoos, and I was planning it for quite a few years. And it it you know, fall down seven times, get up pay implies you've been through some stuff over the years. Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:07:48]:

Absolutely. But it was also it was a little bit like, you know, it's it it was my mantra in in COVID. Right? Yeah. Because I I just went self employed in the summer of twenty nineteen, you know. So it was all about, you know, building my own business. Right? Getting things off the ground. And then come come COVID, because because I worked as a consultant, I was the first one out, right, I literally didn't have any income for for a few months. Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:08:11]:

So I'm like, you you can either go like, you know, solid I go back to full time roles and to be honest I had some interviews as well and people went like, why are you applying for these roles, Volker? You know, you, you know, you're overqualified. I said, I know, but I think that's what I should be doing. And and one of the guys who interviewed me, I don't know if he's listening, but, you know, he went like, Volker, don't you know, just carry on. The world will be normal and, you know, and you just have to believe. Right? And obviously that's that's what I do a lot with my coaching clients now as well. So taking my own medicine. But, yeah. It's it's just always carries on and I just started pedalling harder and, you know, off off we went.

Volker Ballueder [00:08:48]:

Nice. Great. Great. Whoever said great to see you again, Volker, good to see you too. Unfortunately, I can't see who it is so it just says LinkedIn user. But good to see you again as well.

Alex Abbott [00:08:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. Drop drop your name in as well. Yeah. Hopefully, the chats are are coming through. So, yeah, before we get into the crux of the conversation today, I learned a fun fact about you before we went live. I

Volker Ballueder [00:09:14]:

Do you have a

Alex Abbott [00:09:18]:

well, not that you had long hair, but but actually that you were in the navy. I never knew that. And, I didn't realize in Germany it was compulsory even at our age.

Volker Ballueder [00:09:33]:

Yeah. So I I think I don't know when it did stop. So, obviously, my generation still had to do ten months, which was quite short in comparison. So if I compare to my dad's, generation so he was in the air force. I I I wanna say late sixties. So, he so he had to do, I think, eighteen months whilst, I only had to do ten months. It's not compulsory anymore, although, like any other country at the moment and it's just given climate, he's thinking about reintroducing it. But yeah, I was saying, you know, it's it's it's been a while but it's it's, you know, it helps you.

Volker Ballueder [00:10:13]:

It it it shapes you. Right? We talked before we went live, obviously, we talked about, you know, what what does it do to leadership? What do you what did you learn? I also recently saw a reel on Instagram I was talking about because they they showed the old old beds and the old cupboards that I used to have and they showed an ashtray and they were like oh you used to be able to to smoke in in you know in the in the what do you call it? Barracks. Yeah. Yeah. Well, nowadays, you're not allowed to smoke anymore. You have really comfy beds, and and proper locks on your cupboards. And so that was that was different. Right? But, yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:10:50]:

Yeah. So that's that's another ten months of my of my life. Right? And, another ten months of experience. Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:10:56]:

Yeah. Nice. Nice. So this is who LinkedIn used to? Tell me or us.

Volker Ballueder [00:11:03]:

Yeah. It has been a while. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:11:07]:

Anyway, right. For so the format for today, we've got Yeah. We've we've got a series of questions that we've, we've created that we think, you as the the audience will will like, whether you're thinking about stepping into sales leadership or whether you've stepped into sales leadership and you're perhaps going through some working through some challenges to to kind of find that place where, you know, you're performing, your team's performing. But, even though we've prepared a few questions for ourselves, please, we encourage questions from from the audience. So just drop drop any questions you've got in the comment section, against the post where you're probably watching this on a on LinkedIn live. But without further ado, how do you wanna do this, Volker? Should we should we just ask ourselves the questions we've got? Do you wanna go in any particular order?

Volker Ballueder [00:12:08]:

We we we can start with the first question, but we can go in any particular order. I mean, I have my cheat sheet here just in case, my my preparation sheet. But actually, just this morning, I did a session on LinkedIn live as well, about accidental leadership. And I used the example that a lot of us fall into leadership. Right? With without necessarily wanting to or or, you know, kind of, like, being prepared. And which which is why I really enjoy working with sales leaders, first time sales leaders for sales coaching and and and work through that. Right? Because you're coming from you're coming from a essentially, let's say, small group of people you worked with, and once of a sudden, you get promoted. So all your mates, you know, where you you know, before you were sitting with them at lunch, you were sitting there and go like, oh, yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:12:55]:

The sales manager is shit and that is not great and the company is rubbish. Once of a sudden, you're sitting there and you're like, I have to manage these people, the people that I, you know, was friends with. I'm like, can I still be friends with them? You know? And how do I have to react? And then you you you're taking on this role and you're like, do I really like it or not? And, what I said this morning anyway, I I always wanted to go into management. Actually, an embarrassing fact. See, there there are lots of facts that that are coming out today. Yeah. My my not my first, but one of my first jobs I applied to after after my undergraduate degree was for management position. And they said, okay, we want you as an engineer.

Volker Ballueder [00:13:37]:

We want you to work for us, and you can move into management once you get some experience. Yeah. And I'm, like, arrogant, ignorant. I'm like, no. I want a management position. I don't wanna work as an engineer. So little did I know what it actually means to be a manager then, and no one tells you. And it's still true when you get promoted.

Volker Ballueder [00:13:54]:

No one takes you by the hand and says, as a manager, this is what you have to do. And I literally just had a coaching client yesterday where we discussed that where he, you know, things like expenses or what am I allowed to do? How do I best, you know, work with the people I just manage and tell them they can't be promoted? What am I allowed to ask my manager? And one one of the first advice I was giving, I was like, you know what? Talk to your manager and say, can you give me a hand? Can you tell me clearly, I'm a first time manager because you know because you just promoted me. It doesn't come with twelve months training beforehand. But can you give me feedback, real time feedback when you see me managing? What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? Anyway, I talked a lot. What what about you when when when you were in your first sales leadership role? Well, how how did that happen?

Alex Abbott [00:14:43]:

I think I was quite lucky really because, I'd I'd, I was an individual contributor for, for for eleven years.

Volker Ballueder [00:14:56]:

Alright. And the

Alex Abbott [00:14:56]:

first the first six were in business to business. This is The first six were, you know, I was underperforming. You know, I I just couldn't find a way to perform. But on that sixth year, it started to click, and and so I then enjoyed it five years of kinda high performance. I was given an opportunity of working in in The UK at the time. I was given an opportunity to relocate to Australia to kick start sales, within the business that I was in at the time who relocated me, but it was quite short lived seven months. We thought it was gonna be permanent, but,

Volker Ballueder [00:15:37]:

you know,

Alex Abbott [00:15:38]:

for what, you know, a number of different reasons, one of which my wife's mum wasn't wasn't very well. We decided to come back early. And thankfully, my manager had, had, I say thankfully. Thankfully, my manager was was able to rehire me. Now I've missed out one important piece of information Before I left for that role, because I had to move under a different manager, I said to my boss, if you let me go, I'll do two things for you. I'll hit my number before I leave, and I'll hire my replacement. And so he he was like, okay. Deal.

Alex Abbott [00:16:19]:

So when I came back sort of after seven months, this move that was supposed to be permanent, he said, well, first he said, there's no room. We we're full. And then secondly, he said, let me let me see what I can do. And so he created a role for me to move into a management position to run the enterprise team that I was in. And, and I was I say I was quite lucky because I considered him a mentor. And so, you know, he not only promoted me, but he worked very closely with to help me transition. It took me about two years. I'd say it took me about two years before I started to feel comfortable as a, as a manager, but aspiring leader.

Alex Abbott [00:17:06]:

I really did want to be a leader rather than a manager and try and inspire inspire others. But, yeah, it took me two years before I started to feel like I was actually having, you know, making an impact and and helping others. Yeah. So question. What, what was your biggest shock when stepping into a sales leadership role for the first time?

Volker Ballueder [00:17:36]:

Yeah. So that that's that's the first question. Right? It's the first official question, which I don't we just It's only got

Alex Abbott [00:17:42]:

it's only taken us eighteen minutes.

Volker Ballueder [00:17:44]:

No. But, you know, it's it's it's you know, we already talked about it more or less. Right? I think Yeah. The the biggest shock is, shit, you you you have responsibility once of a sudden. Right? You you you're managing, you know, a team of friends. And and, of course, you have some responsibility for a bigger target. What what normally happens and and what what you explained, and I'm not saying you it was the case with you but you you alluded a little bit to it, as well. Really good ICs, individual contributors.

Volker Ballueder [00:18:14]:

Right? They're good in bringing in sales. They're bringing in the money. That doesn't mean they're good managers or leaders. Right? Yep. Understood. If you say it took you two years, because once of a sudden, you're like, my target ends the team's target. How do I split my time? And then ideal case, and I know it's not always the case, often it isn't, you keep your target. On an ideal case, you don't keep your target.

Volker Ballueder [00:18:42]:

You just have a team target and you just manage people. But often you keep your target and get more responsibility at the same pay and maybe you get some commission on top for the team's target. So then when it comes down to hitting your own target versus hitting the team target, you have to decide. Right? You you might just go like, oh, I prioritize my own target and good for me. You don't have time to coach your team. Right? So you get someone external in and say, you know, I need someone to coach my team because I have my own target and I have my my my, team's target. So I think that's the biggest shock for most people and it was certainly for me. Although I've been lucky my my first sales leadership role was actually my first management role I should say was managing a marketing lady.

Volker Ballueder [00:19:28]:

So so we moved in in into that role. I managed to later on got a salesperson so so I gradually grow as a team. So I I wasn't like promoted out of a team to lead a team. So I could kind of cut my teeth a little bit, you know, with with, you know, just one or two people to manage and which was which was quite nice. It was a very small team and, you know but I think that's that's the biggest shock really. Yeah. Yeah. So should I ask you some next question then? Or how how how does it work?

Alex Abbott [00:20:00]:

Well, I was gonna, have a little go answering that question

Volker Ballueder [00:20:05]:

too before I Exactly. So what what was you to say? Sorry. Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:20:09]:

I just wanted to shout out to to Susan Brown. So true. Why promote the best people to a people manager? Yeah. It's, gone.

Volker Ballueder [00:20:22]:

So so if I can answer that quickly. I think we we we think we have to promote to good people. Right? And we have to show them career progression if they want to or not because we're afraid to lose them rather than having an honest conversation and say, actually, do you wanna be an IC or do you wanna be a team leader? Because for the company, sometimes it makes sense to lead them just as an IC. You know, bring in the money, and you promote someone else in as a as as a leader. But sorry. So what what was your biggest shock then?

Alex Abbott [00:20:52]:

Yeah. Well and sorry. And and having a, you know, strong leadership there to make that decision, because it's not always the right thing to do, which is promote the best performer in the team. Yeah. Just one of those things that happened years ago. But I think we agree it's not necessarily the right thing to do. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:21:13]:

I think my my most difficult challenge was tackling underperformers. So

Volker Ballueder [00:21:20]:

Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:21:21]:

I I was literally one of the first tasks I was given as my boss boss promoted me was, Was to get rid of one of the team for underperformance what made that very difficult is I'd recommended him. He was, you know, I you recall I had to I agreed to find my replacement. I actually recommended two people and both of which he hired one of those I had to ask to leave when I was promoted. That was very hard. Yeah. And the other was someone else who was a peer for many years who'd been a high performer like me as an individual contributor. I was asked to have a very tough discussion, conversation with him about changing the way that he worked and adapting to our new go to market strategy. Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:22:23]:

And he didn't want to change. And he decided, well, I'm sorry. I am the way I am. So if you don't wanna accept that, then I'm leaving. And, thankfully, my manager knew him very well, and it was a collaborative mute, you know, collaborative conversation ultimately ended in a mutual a mutual agreement. But but nonetheless, it was very tough as a junior man you know, junior leader, to to do that.

Volker Ballueder [00:22:54]:

And and to be honest, I think because I've been coaching a lot of people around that. You know, the first time you need to let someone go, particularly if you're close to them. Right? If if they appear or someone, you might have hired yourself and you made a bet hire, which happens. Letting someone go is the first time, I mean, even the second or third time, it's never nice. It's never easy. And my point piece of advice is don't make it personal. Right? It's it's it's not about the person. It's about their performance.

Volker Ballueder [00:23:22]:

Yeah. You know, it's, you know, you need to you need to turn that switch, you know, even, you know, even if, you know, it is your best friend, you know, someone you recommended in. You never know. Right? If if it doesn't work out for them, it doesn't work out. And if the numbers are not there, sorry, you know, but it's nothing personal.

Alex Abbott [00:23:41]:

Yeah. And and honesty about the performance is the best policy. Yeah. Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:23:48]:

Don't beat around the bush, you know, like, perhaps these performance reviews back it up in an email. Make make sure you speak to HR, make sure you speak to your manager, make the right decision, and and make it early as well. Right? I I see that a lot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The person recovers another three months another three months another three months. That person never recovers. You know? Just

Alex Abbott [00:24:10]:

You know, I think I think as long as there is clarity there and clear direction and there has been throughout, then, and it's it then becomes clear that that individual isn't, isn't, you know, doesn't have what it takes, isn't willing to to adapt, then, yeah, have that conversation early. So, Susan, thank you again for for this question. What what's the biggest mistake sales managers make when leading a team?

Volker Ballueder [00:24:43]:

Now I've got one for you. You go first. The

Alex Abbott [00:24:48]:

mistake I made was thinking that I could get everyone in my team performing at the same level that I used to perform at. And literally riding shotgun on every deal across the team until I, until I, you know, I was burning out basically. But I had this, I just had this belief that I could I could achieve I could achieve that and, and, you know, mistakenly believe that. And and, actually, you're making that transition from, you know, a a manager where you're sort of telling someone what to do and how to do it to becoming more of a leader where you're, you know, you're getting the best out of that individual, inspiring them to be the best they can be, not the best version of me. Yeah. That was quite a tough transition.

Volker Ballueder [00:25:52]:

And and I would have said if I say the same, right, but rescuing. It's a good old, oh, yeah. I can do it better than you. Right? Jumping in and doing it. But one of my favorite examples of of of leadership, roles I had was when when I had an analytics team I was looking after. So I had a quite a big team. And part of that where, where analytics guys, you know, if I say PhD and above, like, smart, smart people, a lot smarter than me. But commercially, totally unaware, which is why they put me in that role, to manage their managers and then, you know, obviously, they manage the team.

Volker Ballueder [00:26:30]:

So having, you know, management of of of managers is quite, you know, kinda like the next step up. Net experience was really, really interesting, and I really enjoyed it because, you know, I'll give you a simple example. So my Excel skills are okay. But then someone walks in and goes like, why don't you do a pivot table for all kind of like, what what's what's a pivot table? And and, you know, starts taking my Excel sheet, you know, literally apart and puts it back together. And they're like, this is quite cool. And being able to deal with that as well. Right? When you have a team that outperforms you, you know. May maybe not on leadership or management, you know, but they're they're they're subject matter experts.

Volker Ballueder [00:27:13]:

And and working with those people is is I I found it super rewarding. You know, because, you know, very smart, very clever. They they pick things up. But they are also different different to manage than, you know, salespeople, for instance. Right? Salespeople is sometimes more clear cut because we can look at targets and numbers. Right?

Alex Abbott [00:27:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. What about, any leadership habits or rituals or things that you did that you could rely on? Perhaps I've had a big impact.

Volker Ballueder [00:27:50]:

Leadership ritual that I can rely on. Oh, I I can't see that on my cheat sheet. I have to come up with an answer now. Number seven. Isn't Isn't

Alex Abbott [00:28:01]:

it number seven? I've changed the wording slightly.

Volker Ballueder [00:28:05]:

Did you? Without looking at my sheet sheet, I I I think first of all, I mean, I'm a big advocate, anyone who knows me, of of emotional intelligence, which for me is a great toolbox, if not the biggest skill you should have as a as a manager and leader. Relationship building, empathy, you know, you know, conflict resolution. I mean, AI, emotional intelligence covers it all. It's it's so important. So as a skill, that's that's definitely my go to. I've always been a lenient manager. I mean, I I use that example. I I don't know.

Volker Ballueder [00:28:38]:

I'm gonna look at the sheet sheet in a minute when you answer it, your way. But, I I once had a had a lady and and she came up to me and she goes, like, you know, mind you, this was pre COVID. We were all working in the office. She her her commute was probably about forty five minutes to an hour. And she came up to me and she says, Folke, can I leave fifteen minutes early? I need to pick up my daughter from school or, you know, play playgroup or whatever. And it only happens once a week, she says. And and I said no. And then she said, fuck with me.

Volker Ballueder [00:29:12]:

Yeah. Wait. Wait. Wait. That's a that's a caveat. I said no. And and and she looked at me and I said, you know, you have to leave at least thirty minutes early. I said, you cannot take the risk of actually being late for the pickup of your girl.

Volker Ballueder [00:29:25]:

I said there's there's no way, you know, you you only wanna have a fifteen minute buffer. Right? Get get half an hour or leave early if you want to. And she goes like, oh, don't worry. You know, I make up the time. I said, I don't care as long as your figures are there.

Alex Abbott [00:29:37]:

Right? Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:29:38]:

As long as you perform, you know, you you can even lower. I I don't give a shit quite frankly. You know? I'm I'm not someone who sits there with with the clock. Right? So yeah. So she I think she made it to every pickup. And she also tried to make a point of sending me an email every night. She she was leaving early and I'm like, stop that. Right? This you know, I I don't I don't need that.

Volker Ballueder [00:29:58]:

You know, for for me, it's important you put family first because if people put family first, you know, and then they're happy in their private life, if you like. I mean, not that I can solve everybody's private life. But, you know, they they they perform better at work.

Alex Abbott [00:30:12]:

%. You're showing you care. You're empathizing with the problem or the situation that she's in. And, I'm sure you had a much stronger relationship with her, and she performed better as a result, as you say.

Volker Ballueder [00:30:27]:

Yeah. Yeah. Was that the right answer? No. Actually, I put something else down, but what what what did you go through?

Alex Abbott [00:30:37]:

Well, my you know, I've never quite a few things. I, I enjoy giving feedback regularly. I love, and I still love to this day, brainstorming through problems, challenges. I do it a lot with my two sons who are both in b two b sales now and really do it doing that. I was I was big on lead measures and defining the behaviors that we that we needed to follow as a team collectively in in terms of improving kind of the probability of of our our performance. But I was very inclusive with the team. And I used to love little sayings like, I'd often I'd often use the term, you know, I'd often I'd often talk about Luke Skywalker and his mission to blow up the Death Star. You know, this Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:31:39]:

This quite big mission with so many distractions, so many distractions like spaceships trying to blow him blow him up as he's trying to blow up the desktop and the importance of staying on target. And whatever happens, stay on target, whether that stay on target of your you know, within your go to market strategy

Volker Ballueder [00:32:01]:

Yeah.

Alex Abbott [00:32:01]:

Or the deal you're running or the stakeholder that you're trying to build a relationship with. So whether that, went down well or not, I'm not entirely sure. I don't know if any of my old team members or perhaps watching this, and they Yeah. Remember that. Hopefully, it's a fond memory and, not a traumatic, memory.

Volker Ballueder [00:32:24]:

I like that one because you need to have that overarching goal. Right? That that death star or whatever it is right in in front of you. Yeah. I'm I'm not good with movies, so, you know, I'm not gonna even try to attempt to make a joke around it. But, you know, whatever you have, right, have it in front of you. Remind yourself daily about it. Right? Remind your team why you're doing it. I once had a team, not not joking.

Volker Ballueder [00:32:45]:

It wasn't actually that long ago, But I I I printed out posters, to you know, motivational posters for them to actually start working and acting more like a team. It was a nightmare to manage them, I think. I hope they're listening. Probably know who they are. But, yeah, sometimes you just wonder. Right? Yeah. You just wonder.

Alex Abbott [00:33:09]:

So we're, we're a little over time, and it is a great conversation. I I, you know, I think we could go on on and on, but let let's See.

Volker Ballueder [00:33:18]:

We only got started. This this was two questions of my cheat sheet.

Alex Abbott [00:33:22]:

I know. And and apologies for kind of, you know, bringing us to a close, but, No.

Volker Ballueder [00:33:28]:

That's okay.

Alex Abbott [00:33:29]:

You know, we we're half an hour in now, or just over. Let's jump to our final question.

Volker Ballueder [00:33:36]:

Okay. So I know where to look. There we go. There we go. What's

Alex Abbott [00:33:42]:

the biggest myth? So in your mind, what's the biggest myth people believe about what it takes to be a great sales leader?

Volker Ballueder [00:33:50]:

So they all I already mentioned that. Right? That the top below automatically makes the best sales leader. Right? And and and and I mentioned that earlier. I think I think that's probably the biggest myth. You know, enabling others, not outperforming them. So, you know, you you you have to, you have to be humble Yeah. And empathetic and you have to you have to almost take a step back as a manager. I always say that the boat rises with the tide.

Volker Ballueder [00:34:18]:

Right? Like, you know, if everyone performs, you know, everyone does well and takes the manager up with it. And you're the captain of the boat. Right? You're not you're not someone, I don't know, rowing in the boat or, you know, you're you're not someone putting coal on the fire, whatever analogy you wanna use. And and and taking that step back and trusting the team. Again, it comes back to emotional intelligence, building relationships. Having that trust in the team, I think is important.

Alex Abbott [00:34:47]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's, I had the same I had the same answer. You know, it's, you know, the the, you know, the it's it's not necessarily the right thing to do. Just promote the individual contributor, the best the best individual contributor. It it really is about the the people more than it is the numbers because if you take care of the people, the numbers will take care of themselves.

Volker Ballueder [00:35:23]:

Yep. Agree. There's just a great comment there from Ayesha, hope I pronounced it correctly. You know, prioritize their own career progression and and and imagine. I I see that day in and day out. Right? Managers they go like, oh, look how great my team is and I gave them all the ideas. Yeah. You know what? You know, there's there's maybe slightly off topic, but if if you guys have sixty minutes over Easter, if you haven't watched it yet, Brene Brown on vulnerability or as a TED talk or reach her books.

Volker Ballueder [00:35:54]:

I read two of her books. She's amazing. So Brene Brown, vulnerability. You know, just just top all that bullshit. You know? Just just be a good leader. You know? Pace people in your team. No. No.

Volker Ballueder [00:36:08]:

None of your managers will go to you and go like, oh, how well have you done? They all know it was a team. Right? That's okay. That shows that you're a good manager. Right? As as you said, right, if you do if you lead a good brainstorming session and your team comes up with great ideas, tell your manager that it comes from the team because that makes you a good leader. Exactly. You don't have to come up with ideas. So yeah. And that's, maybe one food for thought because I mentioned that this morning as well.

Volker Ballueder [00:36:38]:

And unfortunately, a lot of companies now cut middle management. Right? So which means you you have a target and your team's target and and and you have too much to do. You don't just have time to manage. But we need managers that just have time to manage and develop others, and there are not enough of these, roles, unfortunately. Unfortunately, they're the first ones that get cut because they don't have a number associated to it, but they have a value associated to it. So anyway, that's a quack pay off mine. So yeah. Sorry.

Alex Abbott [00:37:08]:

Well, there's there's another topic right right there. Yeah. Quantifying the value of leadership.

Volker Ballueder [00:37:15]:

Understood. Cool.

Alex Abbott [00:37:17]:

So thank you, Ayesha. Thank you, Susan. Thank you, LinkedIn users. Thank you, Volker. It's been Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:37:25]:

Thank you, Alex.

Alex Abbott [00:37:26]:

Conversation. It's it's felt very natural. I know we had a few questions prepared, but Yeah. I didn't like it when it's more of a conversation like this rather than a scripted approach, and, hopefully, the audience liked it too.

Volker Ballueder [00:37:41]:

Yeah. No. Thank you. And then, yeah, I I try not to use my cheat sheet, so but I always have it there. Right? Because you wanna be prepared, but when you pitch, you know, you need to think on the spot. So I hope I hope I did okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Volker Ballueder [00:37:53]:

You did. Was useful as well.

Alex Abbott [00:37:55]:

And and if if there is anyone out there looking for, a sales leader coach like your mid self, where can they find you?

Volker Ballueder [00:38:05]:

Just look me up on LinkedIn. It's easiest. Obviously, I have a website called Obnatus, hopnatus.us. But, yeah, just just reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Alex Abbott [00:38:14]:

Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. Cool. With that, have a great week, rest of week, Volker. Enjoy Easter for those celebrating Easter at the weekend. Until next time, on sales TV, take care. Bye bye.

Volker Ballueder [00:38:31]:

Thank you. Have a good Easter. Cheers.

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