As businesses evolve, it’s crucial for sales teams to keep learning and adapting. In this episode of SalesTV.live, we’ll explore how sales leaders can instill a culture of continuous learning that enhances team performance and builds resilient organizations. Our guest, Chris Capon, Distribution Director at Westfield Health and Founding Fellow of the Institute of Sales Professionals, will share insights on leading learning initiatives in sales organizations.

We'll ask questions like -

* How can sales leaders create an environment of continuous learning?

* What role does psychological safety play in promoting learning within sales teams?

* How do you balance ongoing learning with day-to-day sales operations?

* What are the common mistakes leaders make when encouraging learning, and how can they avoid them?

Chris’s leadership journey has spanned various industries across the UK, Europe, and North America, with a passion for professional standards in sales. His experience in managing teams of health and wellbeing specialists provides a unique perspective on creating learning cultures that lead to sustained business success.

Join us for a thought-provoking discussion on how to build a high-performing sales team that never stops learning.

This week's Guest was -

• Chris Capon, Distribution Director at Westfield Health and Founding Fellow of the Institute of Sales Professionals

This week's Host was -

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of DLA Ignite

Transcript of SalesTV.live Early Edition 2024-09-17

Adam Gray [00:00:01]:

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to another exciting episode of sales TV. The first one back after the hiatus, which is very nice, and what a great place to start. So, welcome, Chris. Lovely to have you on the show. So first first of all, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit and Yeah. Tell us where you where you've come from and how you've got here and and a bit of background about you.

Chris Capon [00:00:30]:

Sure. Not a problem at all, Adam. It's gonna be a long story, though. As you can see, I've I've been around the block a few times. Probably gonna go back, well, yeah, actually 30 years this month. I started in a in a, a sales career and started in the in the b to c world, working across both automotive and and financial services. So kind of five and a half years in in that arena, and then moved into b to b world in 1994, joining an organization in the in the biz, office equipment, market. Worked my way through from, from sales executive up to team leader.

Chris Capon [00:01:06]:

And then in 1998, took my first assignment, in a leadership role, moved up to Scotland, managing my, my first team up there in, in Scotland, and then on to a regional role, a couple of years later, which was essentially my first foray into managing managers. So managing people like myself who'd who'd been managing teams up in, in Scotland then across the northeast and and northwest of England, in that role for about 4 years or so, then, over to Canada as VP of sales for the, the Canadian branch of of the organization and, originally a 3 year, secondment, ended up being 4 years, tempted back to the UK, with all of the ego stroking messages that that you get. But, yeah, came back to the UK and, and spent 10 years as the as the UK sales director. Moved on, had a built bit of time at Toshiba Tech, looking after the indirect channel, and and now I'm at, Westfield Health. Joined there as the, the sales director, 3 years ago. Just over 3 years ago now. Got my feet under the table. Got known as having a little bit more about me, and now I'm the distribution director, which is a a big fancy title for somebody who looks after the b to b sales engine and also runs one of the subsidiaries in in its own right, so a bit more additional responsibility there.

Chris Capon [00:02:25]:

Yeah. So worked across direct channels, indirect channels, managed marketing teams, BI teams, sales enablement teams, sales support teams. So quite a mix across the, the 30 years, to date.

Adam Gray [00:02:38]:

Excellent. Well well, thank thank you for coming on the show. And and today is you you wanted to talk about, leading learning in sales. And, first of all, give us a bit of intro to what exactly do you mean when you say that?

Chris Capon [00:02:53]:

Yeah. I I think it's it's kind of opening the door rather than than leading. It's kind of opening the door for people to step through and and allow people to to go on a learning journey, keep the skills relevant, keep the knowledge up to date, and and kind of have some fun along the way, trying out new things, experimenting with things, and, yeah, just staying relevant really, you know, getting that learning into, so you're, you're at the cutting edge of what's happening out there.

Adam Gray [00:03:21]:

Yeah. Well, that that's really interesting because obviously we were having a bit of a chat about that before we went live and you were talking about, relevance being a really big thing because, you know, often, you've been in a career for a long time or the career has existed for a long time and we run the risk of becoming dinosaurs, don't we? But when I was a lad, we used to do it that way and that's how you're gonna do it because you're a lad now. And the idea of constantly, trying to evolve and remain relevant and remain current is really crucial. So how do you encourage your guys and girls to take up this training and open their minds to the idea of learning? Because I think that you know, one of the challenges in our role as trainers of people, one of the challenges is there's a risk that people can fold their arms and say, well, I know how to do this. And so how do you keep them hungry and open minded around this stuff?

Chris Capon [00:04:28]:

Yeah. That, that, that is the $50,000,000 question that, that, that everyone asks, you know, how do you actually put this in place when people have been around for a long time, the tenure, the successful, the organization has been around for the long time. It's maybe a known solution and it's about having lots and lots of conversations, with customers in order to make your numbers. But if we were still, you know, as I said at the beginning, my sales career goes back 30 years. If I was still coaching people, having conversations with people in sales techniques that worked for me 30 years ago, we just we wouldn't be relevant. Customers wouldn't want to say that we need to communicate with them differently. We need to have different conversations when we're in in in front of a customer. And it's no longer just having that product knowledge information.

Chris Capon [00:05:18]:

Customers can get that online now. We we we don't bring that as sales professionals. What we really bring is, is, is a thought process that, that challenging of thinking that the, the getting into the back of the head sort of, questions that we ask. So showing people that the world has changed is a big part of it and making people aware that we can't just keep doing what we're doing. If we want to, if we want to be successful moving forward, showing people that the different approaches that can work either in different industries, different sectors, different sales organizations, etcetera, that they can be successful. And then encouraging people to experiment. No. And not have that fear of getting it wrong.

Adam Gray [00:05:59]:

Yeah. So so if you, you're you're a hands on kind of guy. So you model this behavior because, you know, like with your children, telling them something and doing something are 2 different things. So so, have you been a a great exponent of this learning and trying new things and falling down and getting up again, you know, to to to try to encourage them to do this? My,

Chris Capon [00:06:25]:

my earlier career. I had had a great manager, a mentor, and and a coach, who who really set me on the track of of that CPD journey. So, yes, I've done some academic studies in the world of marketing, etcetera. But more importantly in that, what he instilled in me was that need to constantly be learning, constantly be evolving, gaining greater skills, greater knowledge, etcetera. And that's something that I've just tried to share with all of the people in my teams throughout my career, not just sales people, but people working in other functions as well. So sharing a podcast I've listened to which has been interesting or, or something's come up in conversation from somebody I thought, Oh, I read about that in a book and, and sharing the book with them. Or I've set up libraries in organizations before just taking in my my business books, put them on the shelf, and and allowed them to, to take the books as long as you return it. It's a lending library.

Chris Capon [00:07:20]:

It's not a it's not a freebie. As long as I return, then fine and add add to the collection as well. So just giving people that kind of permission, if you like, to pick up a book that maybe haven't read and think about the content in there, inviting people onto webinars that that I've maybe attending because I think the subject matter is interesting. I could learn something. So sharing that invite across the across the group, you know, it's just little things like that. That just kind of show that you're leading learning, I guess, as as as we've titled this, this

Adam Gray [00:07:55]:

session. Yeah. So, do you have you found that sometimes it's quite difficult to get people to to know that it's safe for them to do this stuff. Because, you know, sales like every other role, you know, you have your responsibilities and things you need to get done. You have to make your number, you have to do all of these different things. And actually in an increasingly complex and difficult world, it isn't as straightforward as that. Okay. You here's your target.

Adam Gray [00:08:24]:

You need to go and achieve this this year. Actually, I think the stats are those 75% of salespeople don't hit their target. So, there is in many organizations, there is a culture of well, you can't be learning, you need to be out there selling. So how how do you kind of manage that? Well, how do you give people permission to kind of continue to develop themselves for the longer term benefit of both themselves and the business?

Chris Capon [00:08:53]:

And I think that's the key there Adam for the longer term benefit of themselves and the business. And it's a it's a piece of reverse engineering. So the results are now put. That's all they are. They just now come up the process that's gone before. So the first thing you have to have in place is the correct process. Then you have to have consistency of application within the process. And then that notion of development and getting better and trying different things and different approaches, etcetera.

Chris Capon [00:09:20]:

So it's really important that within the organization, you respect the time that people are prepared to put aside and invest in for their own CPD. So having, for example, my my calendar, Monday morning, 9 till 10 is blocked out for me to do my own personal CPD activities. Tuesday morning, sales TV, getting on that, understanding what people are doing. So we give that permission within the business for people to invest in their own learning and development. Block out that time in your calendar, and and and, you know, get out of it what you need to get out of it in a self directed way.

Adam Gray [00:09:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I had another question here that Andy had already briefed me with, what part did psychological safety play in this process of giving the team permission to be able to do this stuff? But I see that we've got a really good question here from Neil. And and I think that this is this is kind of part of what we were discussing earlier again. You know, yes, you want salespeople to remain relevant. Yes. They have to be particularly with the case of ethics as we discussed.

Adam Gray [00:10:29]:

You know, actually, we're not a good fit for you. You might be better off looking at a different supplier or or we can't provide exactly what it is that you're looking for. But then there is the commercial pressure which sits atop that. You know, I'm just about going to make my number this quarter, but this is not a good fit. This is not gonna be a happy customer. This is not gonna reflect well on me or the business. You're my boss. How does how does this work? Okay.

Adam Gray [00:10:56]:

I can do the right thing and miss my target, or I can do the wrong thing and hit my target. So so despite those coaching, how long do you give people in order to to to achieve what it is they need to achieve before ultimately they're an overhead and not an asset to the organization, I guess.

Chris Capon [00:11:15]:

Yeah. I think to your first point, Adam, always do the right thing. Always always do the right thing. That the outcome will take care of itself if we keep doing the right things consistently and we have the correct process in place. But to your second point, how long is a piece of string? You know, people get there at a different rate and need different things along the journey that, that we have to, we have to put in place or those interventions. The the point does come, and it's it's that point in my view where you can look yourself in the mirror and you can say I've done everything I can possibly do. They put in every effort they can put in. They followed every piece of guidance that I've given them.

Chris Capon [00:11:58]:

We've given them every learning and development intervention possible. It's just not going to happen for, for this individual. And if you can go to bed at night, happen to have that conversation, but knowing that you've done everything you could possibly do, I guess that's where the time has come. That's where we need to go that way.

Adam Gray [00:12:15]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that there's no hard and fast rule about this, but it's, you know, it does seem often in sales like there's these 2 conflicting things, aren't there? So, you know, one of the things that we see quite a lot is that people are,

Chris Capon [00:12:35]:

one

Adam Gray [00:12:35]:

of the KPIs that salespeople get is often how many calls do you have, or how many meetings do you have, or how many emails have you sent. So there's that kind of the velocity of those activities that they need to undertake, because those are have, well, they're not anymore, but they have traditionally been a key performance indicator for the salesman's performance. And then the other side of the coin, you've got how much stuff do you actually sell. So we often see those interesting paradoxes where you're my boss, I'm making my number and then you're hauling me over the coals for not having made enough sent enough emails. Or alternatively I'm sending loads of emails and you're very happy with me despite the fact I'm not actually selling anything. So so so how do we blend these two things together? Because at the end of the day, you know, if you're hiring me in a sales role, you're hiring me to achieve a a delivery of revenue into the organization. And surely, if my way of delivering revenue is I get up at 11 o'clock in the morning, I I have myself a glass of wine. I'll get on the train and go into London.

Adam Gray [00:13:44]:

I close a big deal, and then I come home again and have some more wine. That's up to me.

Chris Capon [00:13:49]:

Okay. So we're stepping back 30 years ago now, are we out of? Yeah. And

Adam Gray [00:13:54]:

and that that's that's the extreme bug, but you you know what I mean. You know?

Chris Capon [00:13:57]:

Sometimes we

Adam Gray [00:13:58]:

do see the organizations that are floundering, and and I think that that you guys potentially are not in this situation because you've said about the importance of being relevant in new techniques and all of this kind of thing. But for organizations that are a long way from their target, they're floundering looking for ways to drive outperformance in sales. Yeah. So what I need from you, Chris, is for you to make more calls. Just get on the phone and make more calls. And, actually, it's it's like you you can't you can't beat me with both ends of this stick.

Chris Capon [00:14:29]:

Yeah. So so we took the approach of building what we call the sales playbook. So everybody has a kind of sales manual, which we, we adopt and and that's our process and the way of our ways of working. But we built that in a collaborative way. So we brought in the sales leaders and the sales consultants to help us to build that. And the overarching philosophy of it is this is what good looks like. So that that will have KPIs and then number of emails you need to send, number of calls you need to make, average order buys, all of that good stuff based on what the consultants are saying. This is what a week should look like a month, a day, etcetera.

Chris Capon [00:15:08]:

But that's not what we manage people to. We're managing against the outputs. So some people may need to make 50 calls to get 2 sales. Some people may maybe need to make 20, so, calls to get the same level of sales, same same value, etcetera. And that's fine. People are different. They have a different approach to it. But if people are floundering, as you say, if people are struggling, that's the the kind of Bible we can go to.

Chris Capon [00:15:35]:

So look, are you putting in this level of activity? Do do your days, weeks, months look like this? If they don't, how do we make it look like this? How do we get you to that that this is what good looks like situation that your fellow, consultants have shared with us and and helped us, you know, put into a book for you?

Adam Gray [00:15:55]:

Yeah. I mean, that that individualized playbook is a crucial thing that we've seen every time we work with an organization because I think we're all, if if we are failing to achieve what it is that that we've set ourselves or has been set for us as objectives, the first and most natural thing to do is to look for excuses as to why that's the case. So you've given me this, this fantastic knowledge for me to go out to market, but actually that works for John because John's dealing with companies in Newcastle, but I'm dealing with companies in Southport and therefore it's not relevant for me. And and actually part I think of of of this is about giving people, okay, this is what you need to do. So these are your accounts. This is to help you need to crack those accounts, that region with your skillset and your personality profile behave this way. Whereas this guy is entirely different and he or she can do something different because they're a different person.

Chris Capon [00:17:01]:

Yeah. Nope. Nope. Took totally agree. And and then that comes to the outcome. But I think what happens too often is when people are looking at performance, they're looking at the here and now. And and what am I not doing now that's impacting the performance when they should be looking further back. What what did what weren't you doing 3, 4, 5 months ago that's impacting the performance now? Because it it's a we're not in the industry of quick wins of of quick sales going in in the morning, having having the deal signed up by the afternoon.

Chris Capon [00:17:31]:

It's that long sales funnel that that you have to work through. So really important that you have that consistency of applying the process and and the correct steps and putting your learning into practice, as you go through that process or over a longer period.

Adam Gray [00:17:45]:

Yeah. I mean, I I think that and and Peter's comment here about, really interesting kind of the the the contrast between setting a playbook, which is I guess it's it's the way you've described it, it's not a rule book. Is it? It's a it's a manual to enable people to achieve what it is they need to achieve, but then measuring them based on what that's achieving for them.

Chris Capon [00:18:16]:

Yeah. And it's yeah. It's it's a blueprint for success is is is the way we look at it. This is what the the successful, the middle and and and the lower ranking sales consultants have come up with of this is what good looks like. And it's only to be honest, really needed when you first joined the organization. This is how things work around here. This is what we expect our our ways of working, etcetera. Or if the performance in a particular area or across the board isn't quite where it needs to be, you can go about the playbook.

Chris Capon [00:18:45]:

You can what you should be doing because that's what good looks like. That's what the consultants have told us. And and then put that into play to to drive that performance forward. So it's it's yeah. Kind of signposting people along the way and and giving them that that ownership and and accountability for their own performance and their own delivery.

Adam Gray [00:19:04]:

Yeah. Because it from what from what you've been saying, lots of what you've done is is offering up a a a buffet of things that people can do. So here's some webinars that you can you can visit. Come and join me on this thing. We're having an internal kind of role playing session. Here's a library that I've put together from books that everybody should read if they're in sales. But that requires a degree of of a degree of proactivity on the part of the salesperson. Because I think what one of the challenges is, and and I think this again is is kind of further to Neil's point here.

Adam Gray [00:19:48]:

One of one of the challenges that that salespeople have is that I want to invest in my long term development so I can be more successful in the future. However, today, I need to sell something. And these two things are often counter productive, aren't they? So, you know, I need to invest in the future. I need to invest in myself so I can be more effective, but the the sales team, the sales leader is on my back about what I'm actually selling today. So how does how how do you help people balance those two elements?

Chris Capon [00:20:26]:

It's about having that plan. You know, not everything will go to plan. You won't execute perfectly and get the results that you expect or or you built into plan, but there comes a point where you you need to reset. Think this isn't working. What's plan b? Let's get plan b out, which in our case is always a sales playbook. That's the always plan b. If your individual plan isn't working, this is what good looks like. Let's get you back on track and then agreeing those milestones along the way to get that performance back.

Chris Capon [00:20:54]:

So it's, it's kind of not writing off everything that's happened. It's a little, there's a gap and we need to fill that gap. So if the, if the KPI requirement is 10 and you've got a gap of 1, you need to do 11 or 12 in all in order to fill that gap. But then building building that plan, but never a short term plan. There will be a short term milestones. Absolutely. But you can't expect somebody to go from 80% of plan to, you know, 100% of plan by the end of next month. Maybe not even the end of next quarter.

Chris Capon [00:21:22]:

You have to build a realistic plan that that has those progressive steps in there and and is built on applying the correct process and the correct disciplines as as you go.

Adam Gray [00:21:34]:

And and and is is all of the learning or the the learning that you you value most this kind of very individualized learning or do you have like set programs? You know, so I've joined your company and and you say, oh, well, you can, you know, we've got 3 different sales methodologies and 3 of these things and you could pick the one you want and then go off and do it or is it much more kind of one to one and and focused on my needs?

Chris Capon [00:22:00]:

It's a real mix mixture of both. So we we, we don't have a program that everybody goes through. We have programs or modules that cohorts of people would go through. And those cohorts, it's it's relevant to them where they are on on their journey, their their knowledge and their skillset. And we used a a sales capability assessment tool to help us get there. So we put the entire team through a sales capability assessment, got all of the combined results and then just drew a line and, and, and it was an arbitrary line that we as a leadership team came up with. And so anybody below this score, we've, we've got a learning and development need in that particular area for those individuals. Took all of the points that, that, that came out there and all of the subjects that came out, worked with the learning and development organization, training organization to help us build some modules that, that addressed all of those, individual areas.

Chris Capon [00:22:55]:

Then put people into the cohort to say, look, when we did the sales capability assessment, your your score was lower than the average score. You are coming on to the the this learning and development module. Those were the highest score we invited to come along to the learning and development module. And you know what Adam? 90% of those optional invites actually attended the module despite having higher scores in those areas, which You

Adam Gray [00:23:20]:

know, that's really funny that you should say that because my business partner Tim, when he worked at Oracle, he said that one of the repeating patterns that he saw is that the people that always made exceeded their target were people that always spend all of their training allowance every year. And it then I guess it's a mindset thing, isn't it? If you have a hungry inquisitive mind and and you're prepared to sit down and say, I I'm pretty good at this, but I need to be better. That's very different to folding your arms and going, I've been doing sales 47 years. You can't show me anything. I don't know. And and and we all have an element of that in us, don't we?

Chris Capon [00:24:01]:

Yeah. It's it's kind of it's a little more nuanced than that, Adam, because this wasn't about performance. This was done blind of any performance, any past, previous performance and metrics that that were in there. This was solely on the sales capability assessment, how you answer the questions, what knowledge and skills you have in that particular area that that decided whether you that module was fit for you and would be helpful to you. So we we kind of had a a relevant story to share with the sales community about why we thought these modules were appropriate and and and why you should be why you are attending, and then to the other people that that optional invite for them to attend. So we we have we have that piece in place. We also have self directed learning, in place. So we're members of the sales professionals.

Chris Capon [00:24:48]:

We've passed the ethics and sales exam. We have investors sales award because people are engaging with that self directed learning, choosing the content they feel most relevant to themselves and putting the time aside to to invest that hour or attend a webinar, go go to a meeting, etcetera. So we've got those two strands in play. And and that that is separate to the mandatory learning that we need to do around product, around competition, compliance regulation, and all of that good stuff. So it's it's additive to that, but it's it's a different development track for people that they go down.

Adam Gray [00:25:22]:

And and has has this worked as a strategy? Because it it certainly should do. You know, it's like it it it but but that doesn't always make it. So

Chris Capon [00:25:33]:

Yeah. Without revealing too many of the commercials, we're we're winning more larger deals than than we've ever won, as an organization. Our average order value in general is up. Our sales retention is is incredibly high. Our customer retention is high. We're we're having record breaking year on year sales growth, you know, that there are a lot of positive indicators in just putting these basic bait and I say basic basics. Not always easy. I'm unfortunate to work in an organization that that invested and backed us as a leadership team that these were the the correct things to do for our people because it's not without investments.

Chris Capon [00:26:11]:

You know, you have to invest, and it's not just time. There is financial investment. So fortunate enough to work in that environment. But, yeah, can can I put all of the the the the improved results down to it? No. Because we've done other things that we're not talking about in this session, which which sit sit in other areas. But this is just one of those things we've put in place. People are buying into we've got very high engagement with the self directed learning and the and the and the ISP, which we see lots of people earning CPD points and and accreditation through. So, yeah, people are buying into it.

Adam Gray [00:26:45]:

And and the people in your team are, I assume, feeling more confident and empowered as a result of this sort of behavior, you know, the fact that they're learning more, they are feeling more confident, their own personal brand is growing and they're feeling like they're achieving. So what next? What next for these guys?

Chris Capon [00:27:10]:

It it's it's a it's a journey, you know, that there is no destination. We we keep on doing it. We keep we keep on, putting the the learning and development, interventions in place. We we run the sales capability assessment on an annual basis and then look to see if there's any other themes that come out and

Adam Gray [00:27:28]:

So that really is a continual development thing. This is not like putting the the market down as the starting point. This is like we're constantly going to be measuring to look for ways that we can improve.

Chris Capon [00:27:39]:

It yes. We can use the term measuring. It it's more monitoring where are things, what progress has been made. If you look at this year's sales capability assessment versus the previous year, 14% improvement in scores. So the knowledge is becoming ingrained, is becoming institutionalized within them and they're able to develop and use that knowledge and skills. So yeah, it's a continuum. Absolutely. There is no destination.

Chris Capon [00:28:05]:

We just keep going and going.

Adam Gray [00:28:08]:

Well, we're we're we're very nearly at time. So, this has been fantastic, and and it's really lovely to hear of, I guess, what you could call a success story. You know, so often what we what we see in our conversations with organizations is one of desperation. You know, what we see is salespeople that, are failing to meet their numbers, and the way that you try to drive them to more numbers is simply ratchet up the targets. You know, apply more pressure to the salespeople, whip them harder. As as our chairman says, the beatings will continue until morale improves. Mhmm. You know, it's this this kind of attitude and actually finding that that the carrot is is attitude and actually finding that the carrot is often a better motivator than the stick.

Adam Gray [00:28:56]:

I give you some skills, I empower you to use those skills, I give you the runway to deploy those skills in your job. Actually, this is a success story of that, of doing the right thing, delivering the results that you want to get, and that's always wonderful to hear. So thank you very much indeed for joining us. Have you got any kind of closing thoughts or things that you would like to say to the audience?

Chris Capon [00:29:24]:

Do it collaboratively. Don't sit in a darkened room as a leadership team or or or as a senior, man or woman on deck and develop it. Do it collaboratively. Get get grassroots input and and build it from the bottom up. So everybody buys into it. Everybody understands where it's coming from. It's not some, management nonsense, but, yeah, it's it's important.

Adam Gray [00:29:46]:

Yeah. What a lovely strap line. Grow your salespeople and they will grow your business. Perfect.

Chris Capon [00:29:51]:

100%.

Adam Gray [00:29:52]:

So, Chris, thank you very much indeed. Everyone in the audience, Peter, Neil, Arup, thank you all very much indeed for joining and hopefully see you all next time. Until then, goodbye.

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