Sales is evolving. Customers no longer want to hear about features and specifications - they’re looking for solutions that deliver real value. This week on SalesTV.live we welcome Wendy Herbst, an experienced transformational leader with a track record of driving multi-million-dollar P&L success, overseeing global teams, and delivering significant ROI through innovative sales and marketing strategies.

In this episode, we’ll ask:

- How do you identify opportunities to create value instead of competing on price?

- What shifts are required to move from product selling to solution selling?

- How can sales teams align with marketing to reposition their offerings?

- What does it take to lead a team through this cultural and operational transformation?

Wendy’s career spans roles as Chief Commercial Officer and VP at leading organizations, where she managed $340M+ in revenue and drove sales growth even during challenging periods like the COVID-19 pandemic. Her expertise in stakeholder engagement, operational excellence, and strategic vision offers a unique perspective on modern sales practices. This episode will explore actionable steps for sales professionals to create and deliver value that resonates with today’s customers, moving beyond product features to solve customer problems.

Facts, the latest thinking, chat, and banter about the world of sales.

Come and join us for some lively discussion and debate.

This week's Guest was -

• Wendy Herbst, an experienced transformational leader with a track record of driving multi-million-dollar P&L success

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results

Transcript of SalesTV.live Mid-Day Edition 2024-12-04

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of Sales TV Live. Today, we're learning to stop selling commodities and start driving value. I'm joined by Wendy Herbst. Wendy's career spans roles as chief commercial officer and VP at leading organizations, where she managed over $340,000,000 in revenue and drove sales growth. Her expertise in stakeholder engagement, operational excellence, and strategic vision offers a unique perspective on modern sales practices. Wendy, welcome.

Wendy Herbst [00:00:48]:

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Rob Durant [00:00:50]:

Very glad to have you here. Wendy, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Wendy Herbst [00:01:01]:

Sure. So just a little bit about myself. I'm actually here in my home office today. I'm in Jacksonville Beach, Florida. A little bit chilly here for us today, but, you know, all things considered, I grew up in Wisconsin. So, you know, definitely a lot warmer down here in Florida, than my family is up in Wisconsin. So, and I guess starting from there, I'm a 4th generation dairy farmer, so, work ethic comes from there and then ended up in a very different field. I've spent, my career in the chemicals and ingredient space and, started my career working for Sherwin Williams in a really phenomenal company.

Wendy Herbst [00:01:41]:

Started out selling and went into marketing there. Again, really fantastic company, great foundation for my career. And then I spent the majority of my career on the private equity side. So working within private equity backed businesses, again, always in the chemical and ingredient space, and then really the gamut of commercial roles. So sales, marketing, business development, product management, been responsible for innovation organizations and processes. And then, the last 10 years or so on the executive management side of things. And, name of the game, like we're talking about today, creating value for those companies, within the the private equity space and within the chemical space. And I think, one of the things that's maybe unique about the chemical industry that I've truly enjoyed is that chemicals and ingredients is the product that we're selling, ultimately, but it goes into so many things.

Wendy Herbst [00:02:36]:

So the amount of markets that I've been able to learn about and work in and really understand how markets are structured and value chains are structured, has been expansive. So, it's been really, really an enjoyable career.

Rob Durant [00:02:52]:

Awesome. Well, thank you for that. I know you and I had an opportunity to speak beforehand, and that's kind of what drove today's session. So can you tell me again, how do you identify opportunities to create value instead of just competing on price?

Wendy Herbst [00:03:13]:

Sure. Well, I think that, you know, thinking back on our conversation, you know, we we talked a lot about the the salesperson and kind of what they need to do. And I'll say it this way to, practice what I preach, I guess. So how I would answer I've answered your question with a question which is, how do I find a way to learn more, or how do I find a way to ask more questions? And, really, I say it that way because the name of the game is being inquisitive and being curious, and I think that there's kind of 2 sections to that. So there's the company itself. So how does the company get more curious about who are our customers? How are the market structure? How are the segments within those markets? And then kind of where did the customers fall within those segments, and why do we define them that way, and how do they go to market. And then really understanding that value chain, and I like that term better than supply chain because it really does come down to value. And saying, you know, every link in that chain, everyone has to make money.

Wendy Herbst [00:04:18]:

If they don't, then it breaks down. So really understanding what does that look like, and then does that influence how we organize ourselves so we can best serve the customers within those segments within those markets. So just really getting inquisitive about that and then being adaptive. Right? So understanding what that looks like, structuring our company to best serves our serve our customers, and then also, keeping an eye on that. Right? What's changing and do we need to to change with that? And then once we have that, then it it does go to the the salespeople. And it is it really comes down to asking questions. And I think back in our conversation, we talked about, you you know, how do we kind of determine what that value is? And, you know, we said, what's the playbook? Right? What's kind of 1 steps 1 through 4? And it's the step 1 is ask questions. You know, going in there and saying, how can I solve problems? Help me understand what what's keeping you up at night remembering I'm a person selling to a person.

Wendy Herbst [00:05:22]:

They have goals. The number one goal being get their work done so they can get home to their families and get on to their hobbies. So how do we help them get there? So asking a lot of questions, understanding that, and then steps 2, 3, and 4 really get determined by the answers to those questions. So what are we learning about that customer? What are we learning about how their process works? How they go to market? What problems do they have? What problems do their customers have? What are they working on today to get results for today, and what are they thinking about for the future? And then how do we take that and internalize it into what we do as a company and how can we help solve those problems? And, ultimately, for any company, it kinda comes down to 2 things, which is how can we drive additional revenue for them or how can we save money, which ultimately, again, we're we're creating value. So how do we deliver EBITDA? How do we create margin? We do that by increasing sales. Also, can think of think of that in terms of revenue, and then also, cost savings. So, again, we're contributing to the bottom line.

Rob Durant [00:06:36]:

So talk to the the salesperson who is selling what they believe is a commodity. Talk to the salesperson who is selling logistics services or selling a CRM platform, which looks just like every other CRM platform or, ultimately, your background, selling chemicals, which are absolutely commodities. What do you mean I can't sell just on price? That's all I have to sell on. How would I differentiate otherwise?

Wendy Herbst [00:07:14]:

So when I hear you say that, Rob, and the first thing I think of is don't tell me chemicals are commodities. They certainly are not. I've made a career in this. And that's really again, that's the answer to the question, which is how can we ask our customers to think about our products in terms of value and solving problems if we ourselves don't think of that? So that's really what it comes down to is and I literally do the visual with when I when I'm talking with sales teams. So we have to flip that switch in our mind. If we go in and talk to customers and think, you know, my mission is sell the product. My mission is deliver my pitch on my logistics or my CRM or whatever it is, then that's what we're gonna go in there and do. But if we flip that switch and we think about what is my mission? And if so whatever you need that to be so, again, it would come back to asking questions.

Wendy Herbst [00:08:11]:

So what I would offer the mission should be is I am gonna figure out what problems they're solving today or how you know, some version of that question of what problems are they facing? What are they working on when they're not meeting with me? What are the things that are keeping them up at night? You know, come back to that question. So go in there with a different mindset to say, how do I how do I think about this differently so that I can help them think about this differently? If I go in thinking about price, I'm gonna talk about price. That's what we're gonna talk about. If I go in with a different mindset, I'm asking questions. So now they're giving me different responses. We're having a different conversation than what they anticipated. Now we can all think about it differently. And that's, that's really what it comes down to in terms of, you know, at the salesperson level to just really retool their thinking.

Wendy Herbst [00:09:03]:

If they want their customers to think about it differently, it starts with them, and it starts in their own mind.

Rob Durant [00:09:09]:

Can you give us some examples? I know when we spoke, you gave me some great examples of differentiating. I have a truck of potash I'm going to sell you. How is that any different from anyone else's truck of potash?

Wendy Herbst [00:09:24]:

So I would go back to what I mentioned before looking through the entire value chain. Right? So I love the example of water. Right? That it's necessary for human life. Right? But you'll pay vastly more at Disneyland than you'll pay at the grocery store. Right? They created scarcity. They're doing all kinds of things to water now, adding flavor, adding vitamins. They're, you know, doing different things with charging the water, and there that appeals to a certain audience. So it would go back to what we talked about in the beginning of let's understand our market.

Wendy Herbst [00:09:59]:

Let's understand how it's structured, the segments within them, what drives them because that's gonna define your segments so that we can then deliver a product that adds value. And then you could say, can I do these things with my product? Is this an opportunity to innovate my water, my potash, and bring then something valuable to those customers? Or is there, you know, again, other questions, that we can ask there that help us to to understand what what truly drives them and what what will bring value to them.

Rob Durant [00:10:36]:

You gave me some great examples when we were speaking about ways to differentiate. Maybe it's not changing the chemical formula in any way, shape, or form. The chemical is the chemical. But the chemical delivered on this date versus that date, the guarantee of the chemical delivered on this date versus that date, the holding and storing of that. What are some things that people should be thinking about, specifically around creating value? Can you give us some examples beyond those that I was just talking about?

Wendy Herbst [00:11:09]:

Sure. And, yeah, I I recall the the example that we talked about, and I started to mention, I guess, the the value chain piece. So that's why I think that that starts to become really critical where you understand, you know, again, upstream, downstream from wherever you fall within that of, again, you know, where did those connections happen and how can you add value there. So, one of the examples that that I had talked about was that we changed how we priced our product. So, I mean, certainly, you can look at things like how how do we deliver? Can we put it in a different package that maybe saves them time or saves them money in terms of delivering to their customer or storing it within their facility or utilizing it within their process because they can now open the package faster. You know, very simple things like that, which again comes back to listening and seeing, making sure that we understand all the pieces of the the process and of the value chain. And then so the example that we had talked about was, you know, not a package but actually how we priced our product. So what we learned when we looked at the entire value chain and we had to look very very far down to, you know, all the way to the consumer, and we were, you know, several legs back up the chain.

Wendy Herbst [00:12:24]:

And, we realized that because of how they had to write the contracts with a few of those, pieces of the chain throughout, they, valued having their price validity for a longer period of time. So because we were willing to offer the price for our product that they could get from several other of our competitors, at the same price for a longer period of time, they were willing to actually pay more per unit, which allowed us to increase our margins, but also for them to have really reduced risk is what it came down to. And then that created all sorts of synergies for them in terms of creating contracts and securing assets and inventory for, you know, what they were actually doing was in the road marking space. So, like I said, we were create value for your customers. Ask questions. Create value for them. It you'll also be creating value for yourself and for your company as well. So really look at all pieces and parts of it.

Wendy Herbst [00:13:30]:

And the challenge I like to give to sales teams is, like I said, be inquisitive. I can't say that enough. And ask a lot of questions. Ask to see processes. Ask to see warehouses and manufacturing facilities, and then ask a lot of questions about that. And then coming back to the challenge, it's in any response you get from a customer, ask 3 follow-up questions. And if you challenge yourself to do that, 1, you will find it very difficult. And 2, you probably are gonna start to feel a little annoying.

Wendy Herbst [00:14:04]:

And maybe you wanna stop at the point of completely annoying your customers. That said, if you challenge yourself with that, then you will, ask infinitely more questions than if you had not given yourself that challenge. I promise you will learn a lot more, and you will find value if you keep doing that and make that part of your daily practice.

Rob Durant [00:14:28]:

Let's talk a little bit about, marketing. How can sales teams align with marketing to reposition these offerings? If we're not offering based on price anymore, what needs to go into it from a whole company's perspective?

Wendy Herbst [00:14:43]:

Yeah. I think that this is critical to to that that piece of it. If you do wanna get away from price selling and get to offering solutions, solving problems, value selling, selling based on the value of not only your product, but everything that you do for that customer, including deliberate, including package it, any other services that you might be offering, really looking at that as a total package and value that you're offering there. This absolutely requires and I'll use the word collaboration, and that's and then we can expand on that between sales and marketing. And, I describe it as with my teams a read write relationship, and it has to be ongoing. And when I say read write meaning that it's not marketing just pushing materials out, telling them this is how you will do it and this is the price you will offer at because this is the value we've determined. It has to be, you know, back and forth. They do believe that it starts with marketing, and I'm thrilled to see this in the organizations I have worked for and feel honored and humbled to have been able to lead some of their efforts.

Wendy Herbst [00:15:53]:

I have watched it happen within those organizations and in the chemical industry in general. And I think a lot of industries are seeing this shift where, it needs to start with marketing. And that is, like, you know, go back to just understanding what how markets are structured, what are the segments within them, how the customers I define a segment as a shared set of needs. So let's make sure that we really understand that in terms of how it pertains to our product and how we go to market, which we've already learned is very dependent on how they go to market. So making sure that we have that picture and then, and then bring in other functions. Right? Because we're looking at everything throughout the value chain. How do they produce it? How do we deliver it? So let's talk with manufacturing, with supply chain, with finance, and let's ask these questions. This is how we see the world, and this is how we would structure markets and segments and how we would talk to customers.

Wendy Herbst [00:16:53]:

These are the type of tools that we believe that we need because of this understanding, and let everybody poke holes in that. And then kind of get to that base understanding of how do we how do we wanna structure this, and then we can design a plan around that. And then that's where it goes to the sales team then to say you're our boots on the ground. You are having these conversations with customers. You're asking all these questions and all of those follow-up questions. Then, bring all of that information back. And what, what gets measured gets results. Right? So making sure that we're documenting those things or tracking those things and we're looking at you know it's a constant, it's an ongoing process to keep looking at that and saying, okay.

Wendy Herbst [00:17:38]:

If we decide segment defined segments as a shared set of needs, as we've collected all of this information based on the structure from the directly from the sales team coming from our customers, do we still believe it? Is it still does it still hold true, or do we need to make some adjustments there because we can serve our customers better? We could do better for our company because we could do better for our customers if we make changes there. And then, you know, just like I said, ongoing. Then make those adjustments and, you know, continue to get that information from the customers. Like I said, boots on the ground. They're the frontline. And I love and I, you know, again, have done a lot of this within my career. I've served in marketing roles as well. And then take your technical people, take your marketing people, take your manufacturing, your supply chain people to your customers.

Wendy Herbst [00:18:32]:

They will ask a different set of questions than a salesperson will. And it also invites additional people within your customers into the conversation as well as well, again, allowing you to learn more. Right? If you say I'm bringing my supply chain person, they'll bring a supply chain person. They speak a different language than us commercial guys. Right? So we get to learn more that way. That, you know, every salesperson, that kind of rule of 5. Right? We always wanna continue to penetrate further into the organization and how do we have more conversations and know more people so that we really create more stickiness with that relationship. So it does collaborative relationship kind of coming back around rep, you know, collaborative relationship with sales and marketing from a commercial perspective to really create that picture, read, write relationship, make sure we understand it, make sure we're being adaptive.

Wendy Herbst [00:19:26]:

And then I love to involve other functions as well so that we learn as much as we can.

Rob Durant [00:19:34]:

So as you're involving these other functions, what are some challenges organizations face as they attempt to reposition themselves from commodity commodity focused businesses to a value driven model?

Wendy Herbst [00:19:50]:

So this is the thing about learning a lot. Right? It, you know, certainly, if you're doing it right and getting all the information, it will undoubtedly lead to change. Right? Where things we need to maybe do some things differently. If we're able to, you know, the example I gave, right, of offering price validity for a longer period of time, well, that required us to sell sell outside of some policies and procedures that we had in pricing. And then we had to think about what does that mean then for that policy? Is it something we would do more broadly than the segment that we had defined that for? So, but these are you know, I look at these as the good problems. Right? The problems you wanna have have because it means we're growing. It means we're learning, and we're finding a way to add value to our customers, which adds value to our company. So there's, you know, that's kind of a big category, right, of, it's gonna create change, and you're gonna have to figure out, is that something that we wanna do? Does it align with the the mission and vision of the company, and does it still, you know, stay true to who we are as as in terms of being a company? And, you know, only, you know, the the the company itself can answer those questions.

Wendy Herbst [00:21:07]:

For the most part, you know, come comes down then to, like I said, answering those questions and then looking at impact to the company because ultimately, the missions and visions of companies, right, are to be profitable for shareholders, etcetera, while delivering value to our customers and some version of that. So if we've learned a way to better serve customers and it can be done in a profitable way for us and for our customers, then, we put plans in place to to start making those changes.

Rob Durant [00:21:40]:

Beyond revenue, which is really a lagging indicator, how do you measure success when implementing a value based approach?

Wendy Herbst [00:21:49]:

I am a huge fan of leading and lagging KPIs. Right? So you just gave an example of a lagging KPI and really the financial output. Right? Like your monthly report, you know, every line on the p and l, right, is gonna be a lagging indicator of what's happened in the last month and then kind of year to date depending on where you are in the year. And then, really it comes down to you know, I go backwards and said step 1, ask a lot of questions, then determine step 2 because of the answers to those questions. So how do you, once you have those, then utilizing those to determine what are those leading KPIs. What are the things that you wanna measure? And how I would define that is, okay, we know we wanna grow in those lagging indicators, right, if we think about financial performance, etcetera. So what are the behaviors and actions that we believe we need to take and things we need to do on a daily, weekly, monthly, annual basis in order to achieve that from a lagging indicator perspective and then work backwards from there. So and I think it's really important particularly, you know, as a company and again, you know, really grateful to have been a part of companies going through this change when you're on this journey of kind of getting out of that commodity product in the chemical industry molecule mindset and going towards this solution focused markets how do we solve problems for customers that sort of structure, as you go down that path that it's important to remember it is really different and, be willing to get creative, I guess, is the best way to to say it.

Wendy Herbst [00:23:36]:

So, be agile in setting what those, leading indicators might be. So silly example, if you will. We talked about asking a lot of questions and, you know, kind of that ask 3 follow-up questions. So if you then made it part of a salesperson's, requirements that they have to check how many questions did you ask in the sales call, They will definitely be more mindful of how many questions that they're asking. If you set targets for that, of how many questions do you need to ask, right, then they'll they'll start to develop lists, and they'll start sharing them, and they'll do best practices, and they'll find a way if they know that they're being measured on those things. So, like I said, maybe a silly example, but something I've done in my past, and it was effective. We definitely learned a lot more, and, we had salespeople asking a lot of questions and everything I just described was from real world experience. We had all kinds of side meetings about these are the ones I'm asking, those kind of lists going all over.

Wendy Herbst [00:24:41]:

So, you know, all of that to say then that, work backward. You know, start with the end in mind, work backwards from there, and say, what are the actions that we need to take in order to to get to these results? And then, design no matter how different they might look or feel, design those leading indicators around, ultimately where you wanna get to.

Rob Durant [00:25:08]:

Awesome. Wendy, this has been great. How can people learn more? Where can they get in touch with you?

Wendy Herbst [00:25:15]:

LinkedIn is gonna be the best, best place to get a hold of me, and it's just, you know, Wendy Herbst, and you can find me there.

Rob Durant [00:25:23]:

Excellent. We now have a newsletter. Get show highlights beyond the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes, you can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at salestv.liveforward/newsletter. This has been another edition of Sales TV Live. On behalf of the panelists and everyone here at Sales TV, to our guest, Wendy, and to our audience, thank you all for being an active part in today's show, and we'll see you next time.

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