Sales Transformation- Where are you starting from?
Are you planning a transformation?
How do you know where to go if you don’t know where you’re starting from. In sales or any GTM transformation we often start where we think we should as opposed to where we actually are.
We don't have the luxury of google maps, the stars or the sun therefore it’s vital one knows where we are before we know where we need to go.
Sales education, training, enablement…. There’s so much to consider, we will discuss where you can go for credible, research based insight to help you on your journey.
Key takeaways:
1️⃣ Assessing where you are
2️⃣ What functions you will need
3️⃣ Know where to go for guidance for your sales transformation
This week we were joined by our Special Guest -
Axel Ferreyrolles, Head of Innovation and Transformation at SAP
This week's Host was -
Alex Abbott, Founder of Supero
Our Panelist was -
Transcript of Sales Transformation on SalesTV.live 2024-04-25
Alex Abbott [00:00:00]:
To another edition of sales TV. This Tim, we have a special series for you, sales transformation. And we're here at Grenville Turner Studios, and I'm joined by the wonderful
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:00:14]:
Doctor Grant Van Albrecht. Hough. Alex. It's great to be with you again. Thanks.
Alex Abbott [00:00:18]:
Welcome. Welcome. And we have a topic for everyone today.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:00:22]:
We do.
Alex Abbott [00:00:22]:
We're talking about sales transformation. Where are we starting from?
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:00:27]:
Absolutely. You know, and it's a it's a great conversation. You look Abbott global organizations Andy sales. Where do you start from when we start talking about transformation? It's all the buzzwords. But I think today, we're gonna have somebody who really knows and has experienced it from a great big corporation.
Alex Abbott [00:00:42]:
We
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:00:43]:
Who's our guest today? So our
Alex Abbott [00:00:44]:
guest today, I think someone you know, Axel Ferreyrolles.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:00:49]:
Axel Ferreyrolles. Yes. Absolutely. From SAP. Oh, that's wonderful. He knows all about it. And there he is. Hey, Axel.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:00:55]:
How are you today?
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:00:57]:
Hi, Grant. Hi, Alex. Nice to be with you all and nice to be with all the watchers here. I'm perfectly fine and happy to talk about sales transformation with you both.
Alex Abbott [00:01:07]:
Welcome. Welcome. Do you wanna take a few minutes to introduce yourself, Axel?
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:01:14]:
Shortly then. I have been 30 years in the IT industry, 18 years with SAP now. I'm in charge of innovation and transformation within the global field enablement. So my role has been to collaborate with sales to think about sales transformation and to see how we can move our 5 to 8000 sales people, towards a more effective and efficient way of selling.
Alex Abbott [00:01:39]:
Brilliant. Brilliant. It's Gray.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:01:40]:
That sounds like a mouthful.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:01:41]:
That's a
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:01:42]:
lie. That's a tough job.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:01:44]:
It's an interesting one.
Alex Abbott [00:01:46]:
Yeah. Very much so. So, so last time we were together, we talked about, what sales transformation was. Mhmm. And we covered a lot of ground. Andy I think, today I really wanna kick things off where, we start to look at where we start from. So for, for many years I've been within an organization that has, this was when I was in the corporate world Mhmm. That would change their go to market strategy almost annually.
Alex Abbott [00:02:18]:
And so every year we would have this significant change. And I kind of feel like some sales leader or business leader somewhere had this grand idea that they were gonna make a change and then everyone had to follow and we'd spend the 1st few months of that year having to learn new things and change the way that we did things.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:02:38]:
Yeah. So true.
Alex Abbott [00:02:40]:
So
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:02:41]:
Andy sometimes you talk about yearly strategies, sometimes it's weekly. You know, your go to market strategy can change on a weekly week's notice depending on trading. Yeah. So then the messages you think to your global sales team can be really convoluted Andy it can be very agile, you know. That's where agility has to be part of what you're doing. So it's a good discussion, and I'm really glad we have Alex with us as well today. But, you know, if I look at Royal Caribbean Cruises in the international side, Andy in 2018, I was asked to come set up sales improvement back then. And I think we talked about that on our last show just a little bit Abbott what is the difference between, sales transformation and sales enablement.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:03:20]:
The different types of processes are there. But, you have to look at what are we trying to do. We're not really trying to just improve people. We're trying to exit away from the 19 eighties, you know, toxic consultative sales process that still pervades us today. You know, it's not about manipulating sales or manipulating our customers and overcoming their objections. It's about how do we truly transform and that's different.
Alex Abbott [00:03:45]:
Yeah. So where does one start from? Because in my experience it does it did feel like someone had this grand idea and they said right we're gonna change
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:03:56]:
Mhmm.
Alex Abbott [00:03:56]:
And it didn't feel like they really knew where they were starting from. It was just an idea and let's go. Yeah. But where do organizations actually start from?
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:04:06]:
Well, it's interesting. Axel, you know, I'll I'll I'll share for just to to kick us off. I think we have a similar, experience from how we know each other. Again, in 2018, I looked throughout all of our organization for, well, what are the ways of selling, right, within our organization? And do we have the proper sales instruction for people? The answer was no. We had thousands and thousands of documents and guides to help people sell our products and services. But when you ask, what were the sales people taught? That's where it's just, well, we hire the best people.
Alex Abbott [00:04:41]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:04:41]:
But what were they taught? So what we did is we went directly to Consalia Sales Business School, and there was the very first sales master's program on how do you lead sales transformation. And in my forties, you talk about a change, I went back to school to do the master's program. But it was so pioneering because that's where you learn the sales science, the sales psychology, the democracy, the the the world that we live within. And then how do you transform your sales teams to live and meet the customers, and I I believe that's where Alex, where you and I met as well too. You were on a similar journey. Is that correct? Axel. Axel. Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:05:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. Alex and Axel.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:05:19]:
No worries. I got both of you guys.
Alex Abbott [00:05:21]:
The same letters just jumbled around a little bit. My my name.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:05:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm usually call Alex. It's perfectly fine. Actually, yes. It was back in 2011, 2012. I have been asked to find a way to motivate frontline sales managers to transform, and I couldn't find that anywhere. I couldn't find it inside SAP.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:05:45]:
I couldn't find it in most universities who are only proposing and suggesting plain vanilla marketing type program. There was nothing about sales. So I went to Consalia, to doctor Phil Squire, and I said, can we build something? And that's when we built the Tim master in sales on leading sales transformation, and we have been running it at SAP for the last 13 years now. And I can tell you that it has been a journey, it has been a learning, but we started with the focus on the frontline sales managers who we consider being the transmission belt between the strategy of the board and the customers. And if you can try to change the frontline sales managers, of course, you have a leverage impact on their sales teams. So that's where we started.
Alex Abbott [00:06:30]:
Wow. And how do you, maintain change within such a large organization through what I can only imagine are quite complex layers of leadership?
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:06:43]:
Yeah. Axel, how do you do it?
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:06:48]:
We in any large organization I know, we tend to shoot and forget. We believe that by delivering a training, you will drive transformation. We know it doesn't work. One of the key ingredient of transformation is feedback loop. The feedback loop can go through coaching, peer to peer communication, Andy conversations, and that's what you need to instill into your process if you want to keep the change happening. You need to have a continuous improvement, learning, exchange. You need to learn from mistakes and failures. You need to celebrate them by the way because you never know where you go.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:07:21]:
That's one of the point of transformation. Transformation is a sudden and deep rooted change of perception and you don't always know where that transformation will lead you. So you need to have this continuous process in order to drive it and to to enable it and to make it thrive.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:07:38]:
Yeah. I would have to agree because he's he's absolutely right. You know, even in our organization when you roll out massive training programs. So we learned a lot from the Consalia Sales Business School about how to build our sales Adam.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:07:50]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:07:50]:
And we built that sales academy bespokely for our sales people with that science and psychology in mind. But, just like Axel as well on the the sales master's journey, module 4 was about leading change and how do you do that? And for me, that was a pivotable moment in my, academic slash pracademic career path because you know, in that moment with doctor Phil, I raised my hand and said, I'm sorry, I can't use these models on my people. Mhmm. And he said, why? And I said, because these models are prescriptive and they say that change is automatically going to occur. But I know that that's not true and Alex, you confirm it as well too. When we launch a sales training, one Tim, one one shot Andy we're done. That doesn't work because you haven't touched the individual. So there needed to be something else that truly can inspire and include the individual Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:08:37]:
Which is why I created, the model scared so what to do that.
Alex Abbott [00:08:41]:
Yeah. But still organizations, begin transformation from the bottom up Yeah. When actually it should start from the top down.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:08:50]:
I agree. I agree. And in our experience, if you can bring the leadership on board with understanding how do you manage change and how do you lead that? The 2 different things. 1 is how do you manage it for yourself, But then, how do you lead it for others? Andy inclusive change, we haven't been taught how to do that yet today. Which is why we're at the pioneer forefront of of just touching that with scared so what. But if you can look at it for your individuals Andy I ask often business leaders, I Gray, whenever you roll something out to people and it's a change process, and you do you ask your people, hey, do you like this change? Do you accept this change? Are you on board with this change? And people often look at me and they go, what are you talking about? And I'm like, exactly. We don't talk that way. You know? Axel, have you ever had that in your experience? You know, do you talk to people like that?
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:09:44]:
All the Tim. I mean the experience is that human beings usually are not involved Yeah. Into the transformation process. They Tim imposed. Right? So they they see this pushed on them Andy what do we do when we are pushed? Something on us, we resist. Yeah. So instead of resisting, which use a huge amount of energy, what about including people into the thinking? And as you said, yes, having the top down approach is extremely important, right? If you don't have the vein from the top, then you will have an issue in the middle of your transformation for sure.
Alex Abbott [00:10:16]:
Yeah. Wow. But, you know,
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:10:18]:
that also brings us so you've highlighted a good point starting from the top, And that's about leadership. Yeah. So sales transformation, you know, the key word is how do you lead it? And where are you starting from? And I think from the leadership, you know, what something that I teach, in in with my experiences is that there's a foundation. And there's a foundation of transactional leadership, which is over here on the left.
Alex Abbott [00:10:41]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:10:42]:
And transformational leadership, which is on the right. And this is how you find your foundation of who you are, your core identity. But the interesting thing is is, it can be learned. Mhmm. It's a learned process. And transactional is as, comes from a basis of tell Andy we've all seen that. Right? We've all seen leaders who tell us what to do. Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:11:02]:
But then we're not included.
Alex Abbott [00:11:03]:
No. No. We we're obviously covering that in episode 3, the next episode. But I wanna come back to kind of the nuts and bolts if you like of where we start. So we're we're talking about where organizations we feel they're doing it wrong where they start from the bottom up. We're saying actually it should be a top down approach Andy helping to, teach our leadership how to become transformational leaders to prepare. Mhmm. But then in terms of the processes and the structure, what comes first? Is there some is there a design thinking approach to how we strategically tackle this idea of change? Yeah.
Alex Abbott [00:11:45]:
Which bits come first? Do we design that process? Do we transform our leaders? Do you know?
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:11:50]:
Yeah. Axel, you know, you, I think, hit that right on the head with going with Consolia, you know. At first, the first step, I think, is we have to get the knowledge. And how do we get that knowledge, You know, Axel, you wanna talk about that just a little bit? How you guys did it with SAP?
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:12:06]:
The first thing I would like to say is based on my experience and SAP being in the IT industry Hughes to reinvent itself quickly. As you mentioned, Alex, on a 12 month basis, it's pretty much true. It always starts with looking at the marketplace, okay, because you need to look at the dynamics in the marketplace and you need to see how things are going. Probably then you look at your engagement go to market, then you look at your internal processes, only then do you start thinking maybe about the roles because let's face it, the salespeople tomorrow will not be the same with the AI and all the technology that comes. So, what is the new salespeople? So, you need to reflect on the role of sales. And then you say, okay, now that we have thought about all this, let's start the transformation. Let's communicate and I guess communication is a key point for successful transformation. Let's train Abbott the question is the depth of transformation, you know, do you go skills, do you go behaviors and mindset, question mark.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:13:03]:
And, again, do you have a continuous process to follow through? So, and you need to take take Andy holistic approach to all of this. You cannot just say, well, I'm running this, I will see the rest later. It should be a kind of holistic, synergetic approach.
Alex Abbott [00:13:19]:
Yeah. Never ending. Well, and I love
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:13:21]:
what he said because he's he's, you know, you're so right. And this is this is involves being a little bit bold. As all sales leaders, if you're running a sales organization of any size, any structure, it doesn't matter if it's small or large. You need to take a Gray, bold look at yourself first. And how are we selling to our customers? Yeah. And what is our sales process to our customers? And for us, we actually as I said, we started with the education because we wanted to find out how does the science and psychology meet and how should we behave to Axel's point. How do you get to the actual sales mindsets? What what are they? We hear so much conversations on the mindsets. Well, what are they? What are the right ones that we have? What are the behaviors and characteristics we should be portraying with our sales people to match our consumer's needs.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:14:10]:
But then you can actually take that a step further. And what we did was we actually in, hired an outside external company to interview, I think it was a Hough Europe, Middle East Andy Africa travel agents within the cruise industry. Our customers.
Alex Abbott [00:14:25]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:14:25]:
Our main line b to b customers, and we ask them, what are the sales experiences you get from us? And how many people are truly effective at their Rob. That goes back to doctor Phil's initial research for his doctorate, to where he found that 10 perc less than 10% of salespeople are truly effective in their jobs. Think about that. This requires you, as a sales leader, to truly ask yourselves, how are we selling? And are we truly effective at supporting our customers? Or are we a complete interruption of their day? And the if you can be brave enough to ask your customers what they think, guess what? They'll tell you. They will flat out tell you. But then what do you do with that data?
Alex Abbott [00:15:08]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:15:09]:
Do you sit on it? Are you scared of what their answer we meet? Or will you take that and truly start, as Axel said, the transformation process so that you can you can bring in the whole elements of how should you be selling in the way your customers want.
Alex Abbott [00:15:23]:
Yeah. You know, I I think about how buyer behavior has been changing over many years Abbott even more so, more recently.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:15:32]:
Yeah.
Alex Abbott [00:15:32]:
And, we we kinda you know, when I think about sales organizations and the processes that they're following, doesn't have to be a, well, let's change from a to b within 3 months. I'm I'm kind of picturing in my mind's eye that listening to you both talk that actually change could be gradual, but also tested if you're creating a culture for change. So that you're you're testing these, these ideas have changed perhaps to align sales motion with buyer motion. Yeah. Until you realize it works before you then make the full change for the organization.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:16:16]:
Well, Axel, you you you look at sales entities. I can only imagine SAP. I know Royal Caribbean and our entities. You have to look at all the different facets of sales. You know? And that's something that, I question a lot of sales leaders on. You know, what's your approach? And to your point, change can be small Andy it can should be focused. So, you know, when we say sales, that's a broad spectrum. Mhmm.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:16:40]:
But look at your sales dynamics. Who are you selling to and who are your sales people? You have inside sales, you have territory sales management, you have key accounts management Andy account management, Yeah. Sales enablement and sales support. You also have business development, then you have contact center sales.
Alex Abbott [00:16:57]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:16:58]:
So whatever your strategy is in leading your sales organization to meet today's consumers needs, you have to look at all facets of your sales reach.
Alex Abbott [00:17:09]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:17:09]:
How are you reaching your customers? And it's not just the account managers.
Alex Abbott [00:17:14]:
Yeah. Well and you've got you've got strategic transformation where you're changing a lot of things that affects a lot of people at multi multi levels. But then you've got, you know, tactical transformation where it might be, well, we're gonna change the way that we, do territory planning or account planning or the research that we do, which is still transformational Abbott it's kind of micro transformation.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:17:42]:
Yeah.
Alex Abbott [00:17:42]:
But it span it still spans a lot of people but horizontally as opposed to horizontally and vertically.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:17:48]:
Yeah. I I had a good conversation with doctor Phil just the other day, and he said, Grant, keep in mind, not every entity needs to change. Yeah. So, Axel, could you comment on that as well too? Because I know you have that experience.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:18:04]:
Yeah. I would like to bounce on on what, Grant said about sales experience and dying experience. For Alex sales professionals listening, I guess the key question is which sales experience do you want to provide because that sales experience will then impact everything you do, right, from the process you set up, the way you engage, the communication, and the leadership. So, I guess we need to think now in Tim of experience. For me, the keyword currently is co creation. Why? Because with the level of technology we have reached, with the speed at which markets are unifying, blending, transforming, what the customer expect is not to be sold, you know, they don't want a product. They want an ability to transform. That ability to transform into the unknown requires cocreation.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:18:54]:
What we try to do at SAP is to drive towards that notion of cocreation with the customers into something we both don't know and we need to see that by selling the technology and the innovation that they need, they will be able to go where they want to go to reach the highest potential. And I guess that notion of what do you want to bring as an experience to your customer is what will drive your entire transformation.
Alex Abbott [00:19:18]:
Yeah. So let's let's dig into cocreation because I think that's where, as you quite rightly said before, the resistance drops when when leadership people generally feel like they're part of the creation of the transformation.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:19:36]:
Well, of course. You know, that's where the word collaboration comes into Gray, and change management comes into play. And just as Axel truthfully said, you know, we are far better off when we're not trying to manipulate the sales process, overcome their objections, and close, close, close. Which has always been the mantra in every single sales ethic. We talk about how we need to, you know, make sure that we involve the customers. But to Axel's point, how often, and answer this honestly, how often are you truly collaborative? Yeah. How often are you truly creative?
Alex Abbott [00:20:12]:
We we try and do it in the sales process. Yeah. You know, good good Hough performing salespeople will will make their buyer feel like they're part of, you know, the the evaluation of different options. So why don't we do it within our own organizations?
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:20:28]:
Well, ain't that funny? You know, if you as a consumer yourself and this is where I find it hilarious that we it's actually insane if you think about it. As a sales professional, when we're when we take our hat off, you know, our work hat off Andy we go out to buy and consume products ourselves, you go to a store or something, the last thing you want is for some pushy salesperson to come up. Do you want this? Do you want that? I've got this on sale, etcetera. And often, the first thing we do is, thanks. I'm fine. I'm okay. I'll call you when I need you.
Alex Abbott [00:20:58]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:20:59]:
And why do we do that? We do that because we don't want to be sold to. So if we feel that within our identity
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:21:07]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:21:08]:
Then how do we as sales leaders transform and give the power slash the empathy slash the, empowerment to our sales people to meet the customer truly where they are. Andy you know what? That requires Gray.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:21:21]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:21:22]:
And it also requires, as doctor Phil says, authenticity. Because I believe we should be and I see, Axel, you're smiling to this as well. I believe we should be so honest in our sales approach into helping the customer understand about our products and services, but also understand how we can meet or maybe we cannot meet their needs.
Alex Abbott [00:21:43]:
I kind of hear I'm hearing the transactional sales leaders out there saying, but I don't have time for that grant. Mhmm. I just need to tell people what to do Andy they need to do it. Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:21:53]:
Do you wanna take that one, Axel?
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:21:56]:
I I was I was almost going to jump on what I call the paradox of sales. Right? We are here believing that transformation is key Andy we need, transformational salespeople. But on the other hand, we have this quarterly pressure.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:22:10]:
Mhmm.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:22:10]:
And we know that we need to forecast, we need to drive the deal, we need to close the deal Andy make the the revenue. Well, there is a hope within that process especially from our IT perspective is that we move from an on prem to a cloud model. The cloud model is not so much about what you sell, it's about realizing the value. Realizing your value is a post sales influence, is a post sales effect. So, selling is not enough anymore Andy we need to think of sales in a much broader sense now, not the selling act is important Abbott the presales and the post sales becomes now even more important. Andy I guess that is starting shifting the focus on what sales is all about because we need to help the customer realize the value with what they have. That realization is what drives sales moving forward, and then that takes more time. So the time span has to be expanded.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:23:05]:
And that's true. And you know what? It's not it's not a luxury. So if you're thinking like you the question you just posed, are you a transactional sales leader Andy says, I need to hit my targets? You know, you need to find an innovative way to meet the customer
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:23:18]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:23:19]:
Of where they are today. Because what you just described Alex, doctor Julian Birkinshaw, you know, his research has unveiled the democracy and the adhocracy that we're currently living in today. And you might think, okay Grant, that's a academic word. And let I can break it down for you really simple. People are buying based off of emotional wants and needs. So my generation and Abbott, we're still a little bit on, I'm okay to do some research Andy I wanna see the points of data etcetera. But that doesn't apply to everybody. And you see that with social media, TikToks, Instagram, all the different types of feelings, likes Andy pressures, etcetera.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:23:57]:
People want to see that a company identifies with something Andy that identity needs to identify with who the actual consumer is.
Alex Abbott [00:24:04]:
Yeah.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:24:05]:
So it's not you you can't just focus anymore on your products. It's got to be about who you are, the identity you are, and how you're meeting these people in an emotional society.
Alex Abbott [00:24:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. With and with that, I think we're gonna have to draw a close because we are coming to the end of our time together.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:24:23]:
Axel,
Alex Abbott [00:24:24]:
we have to continue this. Yes. We do.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:24:26]:
I would love to.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:24:27]:
We will.
Alex Abbott [00:24:28]:
We were just getting going, I think. Very good. Okay.
Axel Ferreyrolles [00:24:31]:
My pleasure.
Alex Abbott [00:24:32]:
So thank you for for joining us today. My apologies for some technical issues with the sound, I think, at the beginning. I do want to leave us with a final thought here from doctor Aditya Kusama who says, sales transformation requires a growth mindset from organization member. Thank you for that. Thank you again for everybody that joined us, and for the fantastic use of Grenville Turner Studios
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:25:01]:
Yes. Here at
Alex Abbott [00:25:02]:
Cranfield University.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:25:03]:
Great to be here.
Alex Abbott [00:25:04]:
Have a wonderful rest of day and enjoy the rest of your week. We will see you for episode 3 when we look at transactional versus transformational leadership. Take care all.
Dr. Grant Van Ulbrick [00:25:15]:
Very good.
#SalesTransformation #GTM #PersonalChange #Change #TransformationalLeadership
