Most sales managers swear they’re “coaching.” They spend hours in one-on-ones, reviewing pipelines, troubleshooting deals, and calling it development. But the truth? Most of what gets labeled “coaching” in sales organizations is really managing sales activity - not building sales capability.

In this episode of SalesTV, we take an unflinching look at what true sales coaching really means. Our guest Steve Radford, Founder of Greater Sales Company and author of the upcoming book “How to Sell”, joins us to challenge everything we think we know about sales coaching, leadership, and developing sales capability. Drawing from his Four Hats Model, he explains why most sales managers are wearing the wrong hat at the wrong time.

We’ll ask questions like -

* What’s the real difference between sales coaching and sales management?

* How do I know if I’m really coaching my sales team - or just managing deals?

* Why do most “coaching” conversations fail to drive real behavior change?

* When should a sales leader coach, and when should they teach, mentor, or instruct?

Steve Radford is a leading voice in professional sales development with 25+ years of experience leading and training frontline sales teams. The Founder of the Greater Sales Company, Steve has spent over two decades helping salespeople master conversational selling and helping managers build teams that perform at the highest level.

Join us to unpack why so many well-intentioned leaders get stuck managing deals instead of developing people - and how to fix it.

This week's Guest was -

• Steve Radford, Founder of Greater Sales Company and author of How to Sell

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, CEO of US Operations at The Institute of Sales Professionals

Transcript of SalesTV.live Mid-Day Edition 2025-11-18

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Welcome to another edition of Sales TV Live. Today we're calling you out. You call it coaching, but it's just managing deals. We're joined by Steve Radford, founder of Greater Sales company and author of the upcoming book how to Sell. Steve is a leading voice in professional sales development with 25 plus years of experience leading and training frontline sales teams. Drawing from his 4Hats model, we'll explore why most sales managers are wearing the wrong hat at the wrong time. Steve, welcome. Thank you, Rob.

Rob Durant [00:00:47]:

Steve, let's jump right into it. A lot of what gets called coaching is really just managing and at that deal. Managing, yes, report managing. Maybe people managing from your perspective, what's happening in those conversations that makes them feel like coaching but actually isn't?

Steve Radford [00:01:13]:

I think it comes down to coaching increasingly being used as a catch all term for so many different things. When I see coaching as being just kind of one part of the, the training and development spectrum, most managers would love to spend more time training and developing their team but typically it's a time pressure thing. You know, you, they end up managing the sale, managing the deal because that's the thing that's front and center. So for most managers it's, yeah, it's a time pressure or a targets pressure that push them towards managing the deal. And if they do think about managing people, they'll then put everything in that bucket under the heading of coaching. But coaching or true coaching, I say it's one part of the learning and development spectrum.

Rob Durant [00:02:07]:

So I've alluded to your 4Hats model. Can you briefly describe for us what you mean by that?

Steve Radford [00:02:16]:

Yes. Yeah, sure. So, okay, so let's take a step back. So we're talking about developing people now at this stage. That's what my 4Hats model to get with that term sits under. And when you're developing people, you need to be really thinking about three things. Why, what and how. So the why is why is it we're doing this? What is the performance that we're looking for? And break that down, you know, not just hitting targets, let's break it down into component parts.

Steve Radford [00:02:43]:

The what is, well, what are the drivers of that performance? So you might be working on mindsets or knowledge or skills that lead to the behaviors that it is you try and develop. But the 4Hats model sits in the how. How is it we are going to help that person to develop what it is that we're looking for that's going to lead to, to that performance outcome? So the 4Hats model, it helps manage to decide, okay, If I'm, if that's where I'm working, if I'm helping people to develop as an individual, to develop their sales performance that way, how am I going to do that? What hat am I going to wear? And coaching is one of those four hats. So the, the way to think about it is if you think of a graph. So you've got your X axis across the bottom and your Y axis on the side. Your X axis is your information transfer spectrum. And it runs from being very tell focused bottom left, to being very ask focused bottom right, and then your axis up the side. This is your encouragement spectrum.

Steve Radford [00:03:47]:

So it starts at the bottom from being very nurturing and runs the top being very challenging. So that's our kind of our development matrix. And like all good sales graphs, this one's got a graph, great big diagonal line. Go from bottom left to top right. And that is your performance development pathway. So when you want to think about how you're going to help that person to develop, think about where they are on that pathway. So people who are new at developing, whatever it is you're. You're helping them is they start bottom left, and that bottom left is where you're very tell focused and you're very nurturing.

Steve Radford [00:04:24]:

So the hat you wear there is the instructor hat. Be very clear about what it is you want them to do. Just tell them what it is. It's the best way to start and do that in a really nurturing way. And that moves that person along that pathway. The next step along that pathway is where you wear your teacher hat. So this is where your typical sales workshop would sit. You're still on the tell side of the spectrum, but as part of that workshop, you make it interactive.

Steve Radford [00:04:52]:

So you start to ask some questions, and you're still on the nurture side of the encouragement spectrum. But you start to ask learners to do something with what they're learning in the workshop space. So it's interactive. We're starting to bring in a little bit of that ask and a little bit of that challenge, and that moves them further along that development pathway and then when you cross that midpoint. So when you're helping salespeople who have already got an element of performance in the area that you're helping them to develop, that's where you put on your mentoring hat. So a good mentor starts by asking questions, which challenges the learners to use a little bit of what they already know. But mentors are looking for gaps. You're not yet at the top of that pathway.

Steve Radford [00:05:40]:

And so a Good mentor will identify those gaps through the questions, but then we'll step in with advice and guidance to help fill that gap and move the learner to the fourth area, which is that top area of your sales performance, which is where you put on your coaching hat. So true coaching is what you do with salespeople who will already be a reasonable performance in this area. And you are very ask focused and you're very challenge focused. So you ask questions which challenge that learner to take ownership of their development and move them out of their comfort zone. So that's the four different hats. You can use it as a spectrum. You can take people through that instruct, teach, mentor, coach pathway, or you can use it to diagnose where is it this person already sits. So which hat should I wear to help them to develop further?

Rob Durant [00:06:40]:

So how do I know when I'm wearing the wrong hat?

Steve Radford [00:06:44]:

Okay, typically because you won't get the performance improvement that you're looking for. So that's one way. The other way is that other than the instructional end of the spectrum, which you only really use with brand new starters or somebody who's brand new in the area that you're helping them to develop, all of the other areas involve questions to one degree. So just like in a good sales conversation, you're constantly asking questions to understand the person or the people in front of you. You're constantly starting to diagnose, okay, where are they? How do I help them best? Because a good training conversation is essentially a sales conversation. We're selling an idea, you know, we're getting to buy into this concept of how we're going to move them forward. So it's, it's a similar skill set, but deployed a bit differently.

Rob Durant [00:07:35]:

So how do I turn my one on ones from just pipeline updates into real coaching conversations?

Steve Radford [00:07:43]:

Okay, it's, it's avoiding the trap a lot of salespeople move into, which is I have a seven step sales model. And step two, step one is plan and prepare. Always important, regardless of whether it's a coaching conversation or a sales conversation. Step two is that engagement step. But step three is the understanding step. And it's the one a lot of salespeople miss and a lot of sales managers miss is because they jump straight to the solution when really what they should be doing is spending time asking questions. And that's how you move people forward in their development. Get curious, find out, don't solution, provide, collaborate, make them part of the process.

Rob Durant [00:08:27]:

So when should a sales leader coach, when should they teach, mentor or instruct.

Steve Radford [00:08:34]:

It depends where somebody is on that performance pathway. And to be clear, it's about their performance in terms of the element that it is you're trying to develop. So earlier I talked to you about the why, what, how model, the what being the things that you can develop. My model is mindsets, knowledge and skills. So you identify what is it that we're trying to help them to develop and where is their performance or ability in relation to that particular thing? Because just because they're a high performance individual in one area doesn't necessarily they're going to be a high performance individual in another. So it's, it is that diagnosing. Okay, where is that person? What's their level of knowledge, their understanding, their ability in this areas? And if I'm out there with that individual, if I'm in a sales environment, if I'm, you know, doing a ride along or if I'm listening on calls, am I seeing that coming through in their behavior? And if you're not, there's a development need and then it's a case of okay, how big is that gap? And that helps you to understand where on that pathway do I need to step in?

Rob Durant [00:09:40]:

So sales is a lagging indicator. Yes. How do I measure whether coaching is actually improving sales performance in the moment or at least near to the moment?

Steve Radford [00:09:54]:

Okay, so back to that model I spoke about earlier. You've got mindsets, knowledge, skills, behaviors, and the this is a performance pyramid and the top end of your behaviors are input KPIs. So I like to see input KPIs as behaviors that are within the individual's control, that are directly measurable. These are the things that you're looking to see change. But the difference between a skill and a behavior is a skill is something that an individual can do, the behavior is something that they do do. And typically it's the thing that they do without even thinking about it. That's those really embedded behaviors. Because we've all had salespeople who help.

Steve Radford [00:10:39]:

And in that training environment, when they're focused and they're concentrating, they can, they can demonstrate the skill that we're looking for. But when they become particularly stressed or particularly relaxed, they revert to type and that might slip. So it's about monitoring things in, you know, in those training environments. But also you've got to see what their behavior is like out in context of real sales conversations. There's an element of being part of those as a manager as much as you can. Obviously it's difficult depending on the number of salespeople that you've got and the environment you're in. But you need to go and see your salespeople, you know, in those conversations to fully diagnose.

Rob Durant [00:11:19]:

We're all responsible for a number at the end of the day. So what's the right balance between hitting a number and developing people?

Steve Radford [00:11:33]:

I think it often comes down to timescale. Not only have you got to think about, okay, if that person is struggling, so if they're low down that performance pathway, we might want to do two things here. We might want to help them to develop, but also we might want to help to land that number. And so sometimes what you might want to do as a manager is step in and develop by demonstration. I'm going to lead this one. What I'd like you to do is watch what I do here or to pick up from here, you know, support me. And afterwards we'll look at why I did what I did in a particular way and we'll use that to help you model that behavior. That can be great if you've got, if you're either short of time.

Steve Radford [00:12:17]:

Yeah. Or if you've got somebody early down the development spectrum. But the mistake a lot of new managers make is they go for the quick fix or what they think is the quick fix. I'll just do it, I'll step in and do it. But as a manager, you can't do that with all your people and that doesn't move them along in terms of their individual development. So it's, it's a balance. Sometimes you do need to step in, particularly if time pressure is tight or you've got a particular deal which is incredibly important. But it's.

Steve Radford [00:12:47]:

Yeah, it's a big mistake to just keep stepping in and doing it for them.

Rob Durant [00:12:51]:

Yeah. So what does a genuine coaching conversation sound like?

Steve Radford [00:12:59]:

It's the analogy I used earlier. It's very similar to a good sales conversation. We've got an outcome that we're looking to get to help that person to get to good sales conversations aimed towards a win, win outcome, something that's good for the salesperson, their organization and the customer. And it's exactly the same with a good coaching conversation. So a good coaching conversation has that win, win outcome in mind. But I see selling as exploring as well as targeting a win win outcome. And so good sales conversation should also use that element. It should be, to a degree, collaborative.

Steve Radford [00:13:39]:

And when I'm coaching and developing and mentoring training salespeople, particularly when I, I've got a longer term relationship with them, I will talk them through that 4Hats model because I will tell them when I want to switch hats. So good coaching conversations. I always try and signpost where we are in that process and get some agreement with the salesperson that they think that's the right level of support for them and allow them to challenge. If they think, no, we're in a mentoring space and they think, I'm not quite ready for that yet, and you might want to push them in that direction, but they might want to step up and go, I want to take some ownership of this and that and that. That's great. So I like to think of good coaching skills, good training skills, good mentoring skills as being very similar in some ways to good selling skills. If you think about it in the.

Rob Durant [00:14:29]:

Right way, it sounds to me like the four hats model scales one level up as well. That is sales leaders can use that to develop their frontline sales managers. Yeah. Or do you do something different?

Steve Radford [00:14:47]:

No, it's a performance development pathway. It's not just for salespeople. You can apply it to any situation. Think of the world of sport, for example. If you're helping someone to learn a new sport, you start the very instructional end of the spectrum and then you get them involved. You want them to practice and you give them feedback. That's the teaching. And then you take the reins off a little bit further.

Steve Radford [00:15:12]:

But you step in and provide guidance and correction where you think, see something that's wrong. And you know, even elite athletes have a coach that they work with and that coach will not be as good at the sport as they are. But it's exactly the same pathway. You can use it for developing, you know, helping anybody to develop. It doesn't. It's not just a salesperson thing.

Rob Durant [00:15:33]:

So what's the first small change I can make tomorrow to start coaching? Better.

Steve Radford [00:15:43]:

Be curious. Think of it like that sales conversation I spoke about earlier, which is explore and target something that's a win, win outcome. If you need to help the individual understand why it's good for them as an individual, not just the organization, then let's get that positioning right in the first place. But don't jump straight to solution providing. Make sure that exploration step is embedded into that conversation just as it should be with a customer conversation. The same is true with a, you know, a learning, development, coaching, mentoring conversation. They all involve an exploration step. So yeah, take time to understand that person and, and you know, take them with you on that journey.

Steve Radford [00:16:27]:

Don't try and impose that journey on them.

Rob Durant [00:16:31]:

So how do you create A coaching culture across your sales organization.

Steve Radford [00:16:38]:

For me, this is where models like the one I've described really help. So a good model should be adaptable and should be relatively high level and should allow opportunities for people to personalize it without breaking the principles that make it work. So that's where I believe model like this are really helpful to make sure everybody understands it, even those people, that their responsibility is to develop themselves rather than to develop others. But once everyone understands that simple model and buys into it, that's the fundamental that then can push across your entire organization. Everybody understands the principles at play. And what's great about that is the thing that most sales managers struggle with is most organizations promote great salespeople to be sales managers. But people management, it's a similar but a different skill. But if you've explained the principles at the outset, you've given people a foundation to build on because they can recognize, oh, when I was being helped to develop in this way, I've got a basic understanding from what was going on in the background.

Steve Radford [00:17:47]:

So for me, Changing Cultures is about identifying the model that fix explaining it in a way that resonates with your organization and making sure that everybody across the organization understands it.

Rob Durant [00:18:02]:

You have a book coming out as I mentioned. Care to share a little bit with us?

Steve Radford [00:18:06]:

Yeah, I do. So it's called how to sell everything you need to think, know and do to have greater sales conversations. So it's the mindsets, knowledge and skills piece I spoke about earlier. It's got the why as well or good books. Start with why, as Simon Sinek told us. So yeah, it comes out a week on Tuesday. It's packed full of the things I wish I'd knew 25 years ago. And models like the one we've just described.

Steve Radford [00:18:35]:

Models that are simple and easy to understand, but are practical and will make a difference to your sales performance. So yeah, out next Tuesday.

Rob Durant [00:18:43]:

Fantastic. Steve, if you were to emphasize the one thing you would want our audience to take away from today's episode, what would that one thing be?

Steve Radford [00:18:54]:

Good question. Just like I do with brand new salespeople or any salesperson. Before you enter a sales conversation, take a beat, step back. What is my objective here and how am I? How do I hope I'm going to reach you? And it's exactly the same with a coaching conversation. Take a beat. What hat am I going to wear here? Do I know which hat to wear? Or do I need to start off with some diagnosis and then let's approach the conversation accordingly? It's not a one size fits all. Different people will need you to wear different hats, different on different days depending on what you're helping them with. So yeah, take a step back, diagnose, decide which hat you're going to wear first.

Rob Durant [00:19:42]:

Excellent, Steve. This has been great. Where can people learn more? How can they get in touch with you?

Steve Radford [00:19:50]:

LinkedIn is the best place. Yeah, I love to connect with people and have conversations on LinkedIn and off LinkedIn. We can take conversations elsewhere. So LinkedIn is definitely the best place to get in touch with me if they want to learn more about how I approach things. Like I say, grab the book. It's out next Tuesday. How to Sell by Steve Radford Print, Ebook Audiobook it's all there.

Rob Durant [00:20:10]:

Fantastic. Steve, this has been great. On behalf of everyone here at Sales TV Live, to you and to our audience, thank you for being an active part in today's conversation. If you like what you heard today, please take a moment to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Substack or YouTube. Let us know what you've learned and what you'd like to learn more about. Your feedback helps us reach more people like you and fulfill our mission of elevating the profession of sales. Thank you all and we'll see you next time.

@SalesTVlive

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About SalesTV: SalesTV is a weekly talk show created by salespeople, for salespeople. Each episode explores sales, sales training, sales enablement, and social selling, bringing together sales leaders, enablement professionals, and practitioners from across the globe.

About the Institute of Sales Professionals: The ISP is the only body worldwide dedicated to raising the standards of sales. Its Sales Capability Framework, certifications, and member community are designed to address their one goal: To Elevate the Profession of Sales.